Old Chatter from Plea for music in ToME3, musicians needed

ReenenLaurie: Which format? MIDI is bad sound quality, Oggs/MP3 is quite large, and mods are quite tricky to make (but a very good trade off between quality and size).

DarkGod: I do not really care actually :) MIDI is probably not good, but ogg or mods are fine. As they say, it's not size that matters :) If size is too big I'll just make a light and heavy distribution. You can do music ? :)

IainMac: Just as a side note... MP3 has got patent issues (in that you need a license for the player) so that may restrict the number of people who can use that format. Also oggs are supported out of the box with the windows binaries of SDL mixer, the vorbis dlls etc are provided as part of the download. I am sure that there are MP3 to ogg converters available, so if someone likes to do an MP3, we can always get it converted to something that others can use.

DarkGod: Ah yes should have precised it, obviously we wont use mp3 yes :) But if you only can do music in mp3(for whatever reasons) there are converters :)

NeilStevens: Hey, there's nothing wrong with MIDI! The only drawback will be on select Unix OSes, where making it work in ToME will require us shipping a monster patch set.

But if someone has MIDI, then I'd like to have it. We can always render it and compress it for shipment with the game.

Ideally all music for us should be sent in a lossless format, and then compressed better for shipment in the game.

DarkGod: Why would MIDI require patch ??? SDK_Mixer supports it IIRC no ? Anyway I've never heard a good MIDI, but if you can then be my guest: )

NeilStevens: Doom's MIDIs are good, heh. There's a lot of trash out there though, no doubt.

As for SDL_Mixer, on Unix SDL_Mixer requires timidity and a patch set in order to play midis.

DarkGod: Oh it's a patch ? I just saw it in portage use list :/ Well anyway midis can be converted

NeilStevens: Not a patch to SDL_Mixer, a patch set, as in a set of sounds that timidity uses to simulate the instruments.

DarkGod: Oh ..

DarkGod: *plop* So anybody wants to try ? ;)

ReenenLaurie: I'll give it a shot. I'll write one MIDI, and post it somewhere (or mail it). I don't have any good MIDI editing software at the moment. I guess like an ambient kind of vibe is what you're looking for. (Add to TODO list... find decent musical score software)

Biggest problem is that MIDI's sound different with different patches, but I guess that's no problem. The music will obviously be GPLed (or whichever license is appropriate to these things).

DarkGod: If you succeed there will be many MIDI's to make ;) As for the first one it should be kind of "generic" for ToME, smooth, not disturbing yet with a slight heroic part :) Then we can have more battle-oriented music for places like the orc caves, the moria, more dark oriented when going to mordor and so on :) Anyway thanks!

CosmicGerbil: Some of the music should be power metal...that kind of music goes well with fantasy ;)

DarkGod: Can you make some ? ;)

CosmicGerbil: I have no idea, rofl :D I'll have a look at the link to the program that ReenenLaurie posted up and see if I can use it. Would covers of power metal songs be OK, or would it be better to write original stuff?

DarkGod: Original sounds better :)

CosmicGerbil: OK then :)

IngeborgNorden: What about the module makers with a different world? Dragonball T needs background music more consistent with the anime series that inspired it, for example. Zothiqband could use spooky, ominous pieces (perhaps something from an older horror film). And Norseband would probably be best off with mythically-inspired classical music (e.g., Grieg's "Hall of the Mountain King" for the dungeon of that name; excerpts from Wagner's Götterdämmerung during the endgame battle).

DarkGod: Well i'm not in charge of those modules, find your own music :>

BucketMan: I'm probably not going to jump on the music bandwagon right away. I'll probably go look for some midi's online and include them eventually, but personally I prefer to play roguelikes in silence, and the music from Dragonball in particular wasn't especially awe-inspiring. Now, if after DBT I decide to do a Ranma themed module...

NerdanelVampire: I'm not big on including music, but if someone can recommend a good music-making program for Linux, I could try playing with it and check if I can get a tolerable result. I would like something that doesn't require JACK as I have spent some considerable time fiddling with qjackctl trying to get that clunky monstrosity working and failing miserably... Now I want nothing to do with it. aRts might not be the most advanced thing in existence, but at least it works without hassles. Anyway, so Rosegarden is out.

NeilStevens: Well, someone asked on IRC today for some music composition software. I found this in 10 seconds. Maybe this'll meet your needs.

ReenenLaurie: I've seen links to MusE for linux (not to be confused with MuSE). http://muse-sequencer.org/ It's actually also designed to make wavs and other things.

Back to the music: I've played around with the editor, and started with a first try ToME-theme. As I start getting more comfortable with the program (be warned, it crashes every now and then - probably why the guy made it free, and started over with the new one - so save often) I'll probably be able to compose stuff quicker.

DarkGod: yay! As for not wanting music, well there will be a config option to not have music :)

CosmicGerbil: Aw, the music studio (http://www.frieve.com/english/musicstd/download.html) is shareware :( Unless you register you can only write songs up to 1 minute long. Is that too short for a decent ToME song?

BucketMan: If you're composing something completely original, one minute is a very...very...*long* time. :P I suppose if you have it loop gracefully, it will be fine. Background music doesn't need terribly complicated melody. Plus, ideally you'd have different music in every city...two or three songs for wilderness travel, depening on 'level' of the wilderness, and half a dozen songs for dungeons. Plus a death song. And a 'win' song. So, suddenly your 'one minute' is now fifteen minutes, one for each song. That's not exactly a trivial undertaking.

NeilStevens: A one minute tune is better than nothing, but it's awfully repetitive for a game with no time limits like ToME.

Jimphraxia: I think you may be looking at the wrong piece of software there CosmicGerbil. Music Studio Independence is shareware, but Producer, which is still a MIDI sequencer, is free to use. But, as said, a minute's still a long time to fill when you're composing original music, just don't be put off by a limitation that's not there. =)

NeilStevens: Schism Tracker looks nicely portable.

CosmicGerbil: Oops silly me...thanks for putting me straight dudes :) If I can use the software I do want to try and write some decent music :) I like BucketMan's idea of three different songs for wilderness travel. What kind of music are we looking at? Just an idea, I reckon the further into the game you get, the more epic or menacing the music should get.

IngeborgNorden: Noteworthy Software makes some low-priced software for composing music (about $40 US). You do need to read music to use the program though; and the free trial version doesn't allow saving compositions. I'd recommend freeware if I knew of any, but Noteworthy seems to be the least expensive full-featured program for Windows users.

NerdanelVampire: After a lot of fighting with various music programs, none of which deigned to work for various reasons, I got back to fighting with Rosegarden. At least it has a comprehensible GUI. This time I was able to get midi sound from it to alsa and timidity and onwards to my speakers, but jack remains my undefeated nemesis. I think I made some progress with jack, but I still can't get audio out of it... I would like to be able to attempt to do something a bit more polyphonic than midi, though.

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ReenenLaurie: I've completed a first "movement" for a theme... the "ominous" old forest/barrow downs part I guess. But I think at 1:24, it still will irritate me if this loops to infinity. Anyway, can I "attach" the .mid file here? I have a .ogg as well, because I struggled with the "frieve" program to export the whole midi. Somehow it didn't export the instruments.

I kept the file minimalistic with only strings and piano. Which should sound pretty ok on most people's machines. I don't think the .ogg is really worth it, because the difference in file size is about 400x. 2kb, and 800kb. :-)

DarkGod: Send me both by email I guess it's the easiest way :) Thanks!

CosmicGerbil: How do you change the piano instrument? Power metal doesn't go well with a piano. Although I guess I could write a ragtime score for Bree. (Just kidding about that last bit) ;)

DarkGod: You can't change the way midi instruments play, as it's not in the midi file itself. Maybe we should look more on the side of mods instead of mids ? There is http://soundtracker.sf.net/ (some windows version laying around the net too), but beyond the url I can't tell if it's any good or usable for a musician :)

ReenenLaurie: Mods are the best for games, as you know your game will sound exactly the same. But I have absolutely no idea how to make a .mod file. There is also the SCUMM music system (or something, I know it's one of the most active game orientated stuff on sourceforge) used by AGS (adventure game studio) to make you music files sound the same on all PC's.

The way to change the instrument is to press the Patch/Vol/Pan button, and then changing the patch. However, this is what is my problem with my MID (that's why I haven't mailed it on to you DG) because I'm searching for a sequencer to actually change my piano into strings again. :-/ (Though some of it is strings, it is tremelo strings for some reason, and on my PC at work it really hurts my ears).

Also I found this: http://www.freebyte.com/music/ (look at the part of free midi's) I just have no idea if the mids are in fact GPL (or similarly licensed) or public domain.

CosmicGerbil: Changed to overdrive guitar...thanks dude :)

DarkGod: Not only will mods sound the same but they will still be quite small compared to oggs. SCUMM ? I only of ScummVM which is an engine to support the old lucas arts games(Day of the Tentacle .. what a game!). Anyway send it I want to try ;)

ReenenLaurie: Errmmm yes, that's what I thought of. Is it the whole system? I thought it was only the sound part. I never examined the project closely, I was under the impression it was designed for the sound problem.

DarkGod: Yup it's the whole thing, complete with lua support and all(yes lucas arts used lua ;> ) and it is great. Playing Day of the Tentacle on my computer.. what a joy!

ReenenLaurie: http://www.modplug.com/index.php is .mod / .it / .xm etc. maker. It's open source, but runs only on windows systems.

DarkGod: http://www.reduz.com.ar/cheesetronic/index.php?section=2 does it too but for linux :)

NeilStevens: And once again, above I linked to two trackers, heh.

ReenenLaurie: Yes you did. I couldn't find a windows compile for either though, and even though in my heart I like the concept of linux, I am still stuck on my windows. :-/ I guess it's a matter of taking that first (couple) of steps.

NeilStevens: Schism Tracker's Win32 build is immediately below the Mac build on its prebuilt packages page.

ReenenLaurie: Ahh, it's me who is not that smart at reading... :-) I followed the wrong links... Downloading it now, hopefully it's midi support and stuff is easier. Or maybe I'll just become more adept at creating mods. :-)

DarkGod: Mod is better for us :) and your last mod is just fine!

NeilStevens: Yes, as long as we can find a way to cut off that silence at the end, I think the only debate is whether it fits better as Elven music or Khazad-dûm music.

CosmicGerbil: I've made a sample tune using ice rain, 5th saw wave and music box. However when I save my tune, it saves as a midi file and it saves all three instruments as piano. Does anyone know how I can change this so I can keep my origianl instruments? I am using http://www.frieve.com/english/musicstd/download.html).

NeilStevens: Would someone like to cleanup and refactor this page, or should I?

ReenenLaurie: Neil, sorry, but I am not keen to clean it up at the moment. :-)

GeneralDiscussion/Plea for music in ToME3, musicians needed/OldChatter (last edited 2006-11-21 07:12:13 by IainMac)