ToME WikiRavenRed: The recent ML discussions on stealth have me wondering whether stealth and aggravation are going to be the same thing with the new Factions system. In other words... as far as I understand the old aggravation, it basically gives you zero stealth, and monsters have a 1 in 1 chance of waking up whenever you're around. Will the new aggravate also render all monsters within range HOSTILE to you as well (i.e. change their factional status)? Or does Aggravation currently work like this, and I'm being obtuse?
JulesBean: Pre-3.0 Aggravation makes all friendlies hostile. IMHO, 3.0 should be more general (e.g. I think necromancer's undead 'pets' should be immune to this effect, since they are mostly mindless and totally in the necromancer's thrall. You could also make a case for 'weak' summons to be immune since they are only supposed to be simalcrums).
GreyCat: I just looked over some of the winners on Oook's Ladder because I was curious how many winners had aggravation. I looked at the first 3 pages of ToME ladder dumps, which constituted 62 ToME 2.x winners (I threw away one ToME 1.x winner). Obviously this is not a random sample of winners, for many reasons, but I think the results are interesting.
- 48 out of 62 had no aggravation
- 12 had potential aggravating swap-ins in main inventory
- 33 had potential aggravating swap-ins in a home
- 3 had no aggravating swap-ins at all (Mathom only, or nothing at all in the dump)
- 1 died after winning
- 14 out of 62 had aggravation
- 4 of these due to race (Maia)
- 2 due to corruption, without being Maia
- 7 due to equipment only (neither Maia nor corrupted)
- 1 for no discernable reason ("Lombardo")
- 4 died after winning
- 4 were demonologists
- 3 were haftedmasters
- 3 were unbelievers
- 1 each of swordmaster, alchemist, thaumaturgist, sorcerer
Interesting quote from a winner's commentary: "If it didnt aggravate I'd wear it in a heart beat, my to hit is just awful."
I still feel that aggravation is very badly unbalanced in this game. It's either completely impossible to play with it (summoners et al.), or it imposes such a severe handicap that the game becomes nearly impossible to play (death rate jumps from 1 in 48 without aggravation to 4 in 14 with it).
GrootheWanderer: I think it is perfectly balanced. It isn't supposed to be a bonus. It is supposed to be a 'curse' or at least a negative inherant quality to offset a bunch of possitives (in the case of the Maiar's insane stats by the time they reach level 50). You are not supposed to 'want' to play with aggravate active. Equipement that has the aggravate flag is meant to to make you decide whether you really want that insane boost or massive damage potential at the cost of having to fight absolutely everything that you encounter. Just like everything in the game, it's a decision: do I drink this un-id'd potion, should I wield this uber-powerful mace, etc.
As another example, not many monks have won wearing heavy armour but you don't see them saying "heavy armor is unbalancing". Sybiants, summoners, etc. absolutely can not play with the aggravate flag. Makes perfect sense to me. How can you tame that elephant if you are screaming in it's ear. It's not going to be very freindly.
Actius: I played a Maia Thaumaturgist through to a win (and into the void, where she still sits). It's quite a slog -- you often have to kill everything, and breeders are a real challenge -- but it's doable. At least it was with that character. For that matter, that was my first winning character. For me, the whole "moster wakes up and hits me from behind" thing probably more annoying than aggravation. Unless I'm playing a summoner, of course.