ToME WikiI've been playing a few fighters recently, and it strikes me that they have numerous disadvantages compared to the more magic-oriented classes. Lemme just summarize my points, table-style, keeping in mind that not all abilities are available for all mages/fighters:
Ability |
Mages |
Fighters |
Damage-dealing |
Mana-limited moderate-to-high-damage ranged attacks |
Unlimited high-damage short-ranged attacks |
Crowd control |
Multiple area and view spells |
Spread Blows |
Knowledge |
Every knowledge effect is available as a spell |
Must use consumable items for some knowledge effects |
Battlefield control |
Stone Prison, Magelock, Thaumaturgy blast wall creation |
Digging, Antimagic |
Equipment |
Can wear multi-immunity hitpoint-boosting body armor; need not worry about weapon damage; can provide unlimited temporary boosts (speed, basic resists) to cover holes |
Weapon and rings are frequently damage-oriented; has difficulty filling immunities; temporary boosts come from consumable items |
Durability |
Initially low, but moderate in the late game |
High throughout |
The upshot is that mages have all sorts of versatility, while fighters largely only have a few shticks. I'm not saying it's impossible to create a hybrid or something, but it really seems like pure fighters just aren't nearly as interesting to play as hybrids or pure casters are; at any given moment, there's basically only one good option. Here's some thoughts for improving that.
First off, fighters should be capable of some pretty impressive physical feats at higher levels. Things like pushing enemies around (or pushing through them), auto-killing weak enemies without stopping movement, rapidly attacking multiple foes, bashing the dungeon walls around, literally throwing creatures into each other, crippling foes in combat, leaping over enemies, and so on. Some of these effects are already available, but they're sprinkled about as bonuses in other skills, and your average fighter has access to only a handful. For example, to get the "rapidly attack multiple foes" ability, you have to worship Tulkas, and even then the spell isn't that great. To be able to bash walls, you must be an Ent. And so on.
I propose that there be a whole slew of talents geared towards fighters whose only prerequisites are basic skills and physical stats. Here's some possibilities from the above list. Syntax like Combat 20 / Bearform 10 indicate that either rank 20 in Combat or rank 10 in Bearform Combat is required.
Talent name |
Prerequisites |
Effect |
Bull Rush |
STR 24, Combat 20 / Bearform 10 |
"Running" into an adjacent occupied square will push the creature in the square back one space if mlvl < clvl * 2. If square behind the target is occupied, it suffers damage as per a force effect. |
Hurl Foe |
STR 27, Combat 25 |
Target foe is thrown, with range and damage based on monster's weight (c.f. corpse weights) and the player's strength. Sufficiently heavy targets are impossible to throw. This would probably require adding monster weights to the monster memory as a reasonably trivial thing to discover. |
Trample |
Combat 35 |
Moving into an adjacent occupied square will auto-kill and move the player into the square if mlvl < clvl / 2 (note you can hold the Control key to avoid moving, always) |
Whirlwind |
DEX 29, Weapon 25 / Barehand 15 / Bearform 30 |
Activatable ability, no cost. Player performs one blow on each adjacent monster |
Hurl Rock |
STR 30, Combat 45 |
Activatable ability, no cost. Creates a pit underneath the player (assuming there is no pit already) and hurls a rock (unresistable missile) dealing damage based on the player's STR, the dungeon floor type, and the player's Throwing/Boulder Throwing skill (ranging from moderate damage for unskilled to massive damage for skilled) |
Pulverizing Strike |
STR 30, Combat 50 / Hafted 40 |
Activatable ability, no cost. Target adjacent wall is destroyed |
Crippling Blow |
STR 25 / DEX 25, Combat 40 / Critical-Hits 20 / Bearform 20 |
Activatable ability, no cost. Target adjacent creature is hit with a single guaranteed critical hit that also can slow, reduce AC, reduce attack strength, or stun, similar to the Curse spell effect |
Leap |
STR 20, Combat 40 |
Activatable ability, no cost. Targeted teleport to an unoccupied square in line of sight. Range is based on STR; subject to a CON-based cooldown timer. |
For your average fighter, about half of these would be automatically known, and unlocked either as soon as the prerequisites are met or at a given level. Other classes could learn them, but fighters are really the class with the most spare skillpoints. Having these abilities would really open up the tactical possibilities in combat, without so greatly increasing the player's power that the game is no longer a challenge.
---
Secondly (remember that "first off" from three paragraphs ago?), fighters should have better gear options. Or, mages should have worse. Right now most of the gear that's good for mages is also good for fighters, but with some critical exceptions. Mages can use the combat-crippling multi-immunity/+life% armor (hell, they're using coward tactics anyway). That alone is a huge blow, and frankly I think those armors shouldn't be in the game. Mages can also use any weapon they like, regardless of how optimized it is for combat, and while they usually end up using mage staves, even then those have more general benefits than most good combat weapons, which instead tend to have lots of slays and high damage plusses. And of course, no mage has any reason to equip a Ring of Damage, but they're the bread and butter of fighters. All these "free" slots, comparatively, mean that fighters are really hurting for equipment slots, while mages have more than they know what to do with.
I'm not certain how exactly to go about fixing this, but here's one possibility: prerequisites for gear. Say e.g. that you need a certain level of Combat skill to equip certain armors. Anyone can equip Robes, but you need a Combat of at least 3 for most helmets, 5 for soft armors, 10 for hard armors, and so on. Fighters will be getting these skill levels as a matter of course, but mages would have to invest more skillpoints to get them. Some of the really good armors would have significantly higher requirements; Dragon Scale Mail/Dragon Helms/Dragon Shields would be up there at 20-30, Cesti would be at 15+, and so on. Trying to use armor you didn't have the skill to equip properly would give you drastically reduced AC benefits, would slow you down, and would seriously impare your ability to fight. You'd still get the auxiliary benefits (resists, stat boosts, etc) but there'd be a marked tradeoff. Being really good at combat, in contrast, would enable you to derive better results from your armor, increasing the AC bonus and removing any to-hit penalties. The upshot is that fighters are just better at using their gear, and it shows. A mage now has to carefully consider what gear he's going to equip, to be certain that he's well-protected both magically and physically without being too slow to avoid getting his skull bashed in.
That's all I have for now, and I think it's more than enough for one page. Thoughts?
DarkGod: I quite like your special moves ideas, as for equipment, it is taken care of in T3, kinda. Heavier (and so more protective) armors have a penality to spell failure. It is possible to overcome it with some kinds of rings but then it means restriction on ring types
Sirrocco: A few things to note. First, your complaint about equipment slots only strongly applies for nonoptimized mages. For the real full-on mage power, you generally want to worship Eru, who restricts you to blessed and blunt weapons, and you almost invariably want a mage staff anyway - and one that is selected on the basis of +mana% and +spellpower rather than any survivability bonuses. For that matter, if you really crave the spellpower (and a lot of us do) then there's no real choice for chest armor other than the Wight rag - not a bad piece of gear, certainly, but not a +100% HP/triple immunity monster, either. Mind you, you don't have to go that route - you can tune your gear to survivability rather than power... and warriors can decide to stop wearing damage rings any time they like. Beyond that, most varieties of mage get really poor skill multipliers for Combat, and suffer difficulties for wearing more armor weight than their Combat score allows. It may be that these days that's down to just losing a few points off of max mana, in which case perhaps it's time to levy a bit of failure percentage to give it some teeth, but the mechanism is there.
Derakon: The Wight rag gives you only a minor boost to spell power; enough to get a few more dice on your Manathrust, but nothing major. In contrast, a warrior's rings typically increase his damage output by a factor of 25-50%, which is much more significant. Also, the penalties for wearing heavy armor are currently just a decrease in your max mana; no spell failure increase.
For your first point - well, the traditional fighter is all about being an unstoppable juggernaut of melee destruction. Personally, I find being an unstoppable juggernaut to be rather fun. Also, all those spare skillpoints are there for a reason. Try taking 98 quests some day, then get a .5 mod in and max out mimicry/symbiosis/mindcraft/summoning/necromancy/thaumaturgy (whichever one shows up and appeals to you) or max out prayer and play around with your godspells and secondary spell schools, or just buy heavily into archery. Fighters are intended to be simple and straightforward engines of melee destruction, but you've got more than enough space to toss in a bit of utility. Heck - play a demonologist.
Derakon: This is what I meant about hybrids being viable. I'm saying that it doesn't feel "right" for a warrior to be dependent on magic to provide interesting combat, and that pure warriors currently are not all that interesting to play. The strategy is very straightforward, and while the sense of power is fun, it doesn't last for the entire game. For that matter, I have grave concerns about the Void viability of a straight fighter (granted I've never cleared the Void). Also, for what it's worth, I think that Fumblefingers is somewhat game-breakingly silly as it is. Warriors with access to thaumaturgy/mindcraft/etc. are completely out of character. We should be concentrating on making each class interesting to play in its own right, not in making every class be able to do what the other classes are capable of doing.
Sirrocco: Even without fumblefingers, you've still got archery and either magic devices+godspells or unbelief, but I do take your point. Essentially, you want something that will let you play around with cinematic melee, rather than basic hack-through-the-enemy. This is not unreasonable. As another way to apply it, though, you might try a skill for "combat techniques" or whatever - functioning much like mindcraft/necromancy/symbiosis/etc except that it would be a subskill off of Combat, it wouldn't take mana, and perhaps some of its abilities would have prerequisites in other skills. For that matter, the rogues could use a similar skill for "dirty tricks", and certainly fighters ought to get access to that at a somewhat worse multiplier. Does anyone even play rogues anymore?
Derakon: I chose to make them talents instead of a new skillset because they have prerequisites, which the skill system doesn't model well, and they don't all scale well with increased investment (what would a level 50 Pulverizing Strike do that a level 40 one doesn't?). I did consider having a new skill, but this just seems more natural. As for the alternatives you listed - archery, sure, I haven't tried to use it much. Penetrating shots would help deal with quylthulg quests. Magic devices don't scale well; it's impossible to get high-level effects for most spells and rods don't level at all. Godspells work fine, but again feel more like a hybrid class - more of a paladin than a warrior. And Unbelief has some major drawbacks to go with its powers.
Sirrocco: If you decide to go heavy on the archery, and pick up the obligatory craft ammo, you can also wind up with a wide variety of entertaining damage types on your explosive ammo. Gravity and force are particularly fun. It's true that magic devices don't easily hit the high-level effects, but the stuff you really want high level effects for are your primary damage-dealers. Devices *can* be a primary damage-dealer if you really want to run with it as an alchemist, but are generally meant for utility. Pulverizing strike doesn't really have anywhere to go with level, but crippling blow, hurl rock, and hurl foe could all level in interesting ways. Unbelief is indeed a special case, but hey - if you're going to decide against godspells, magic items, and hybrid splashes from the outset... well, it would certainly be a help with the quylthugs.
Mind you, I'm not saying that the "nifty brute force warrior tricks" are a *bad* idea - they look interesting enough, and not particularly game-breaky, and hey, Options Are Good. I'm just saying that if you're playing as a fighter, and you have a pile of unused skill points, and you're feeling limited in frustrating ways - well, there are options.
Derakon: Note that these aren't meant to all be brute-force, and I'd love to see lots and lots and lots of different talents available, for brute-force, sneaky, ranged, holy, etc. fighters. As you said, options are good.
ShrikeDeCil: For a fighter ability-extension, the whole "Polearm" class of weapons could be given a little more reach. (Assuming it hasn't already, last time I played a fighter I was restricted to only entering Moria as if the rest of the universe didn't exist!) Then using 'Spread blows' would be quite devastating to the tiny critters. I'm not sure what we're doing with an honest lance as a melee weapon anyway, but there seems like avenues for making a big nasty weapon dangerous. (And cut down on the wielding of daggers for the extra swing or three to boot.)
Derakon: Haven't tried using polearm-mastery, I have to say, but the far-reaching attack does seem like it would be helpful. Doesn't really mesh with the supposed 10-foot squares all that well, but oh well. What we really need is more things like that, though. Give the Axe-mastery wonks the ability to chop limbs off of foes. Let Sword-mastery guys cause cuts, and the dagger users impale their foes. Basically, when you're in a big fight, you shouldn't be thinking "Okay, kill this guy first because he's the closest to death/the biggest threat"; you should be thinking "which of my many options is the best right now?" We want to proliferate options so that the optimal strategy, if there even is one, is not clear.
ShrikeDeCil:So, imagine it is 5x5 squares. It does make it even sillier that there's one-square-dragons, but the standard 'reach' on some of the weapons is something _I_ wouldn't even attempt swinging even in a 10x10 corridor. A pike is twelve to eighteen feet, and there are quite a few weapons that are longer than eight foot long - excluding the wielder's lunge, or whatever.
Sirrocco: I guess I'm seeing two entirely different concerns raised here.
- The first is the idea that the pure fighter, one of the basic, core character types, is weaker than it should be. They're a core class. They shouldn't necessarily be as powerful as a properly tuned munchkin, but they should be inherently strong enough to chew their way through the dungeon and thrash Melkor by using their intuitively obvious default strategies without being considered a challenge class. So, for example, ranged weapons should be largely take it or leave it, magic items should not be required above a relatively basic level, and so on and so forth. I *think* this is the lesser of the two concerns being brought up.
ShrikeDeCil: "weaker" is tricky to say though. As the power level of the endgame keeps increasing, there's always going to be some point where "pure hacking" just doesn't seem to compare well with the powers of a god. How much pure strength and fighting skill do you need to oppose someone that can shape the planet? Being a pure fighter isn't a serious challenge until you're pretty far into the game. A pure sorcerer, on the other hand, starts weak.
Derakon: The early game goes by a lot faster than the late game does (and dying early on represents much less lost time). Being weak in the late game is a serious problem; being weak in the early game isn't so much.
- The second is that the simple, nonmagical warrior is one of the classic character archetypes of the heroic sagas, and one ought to be able to play a character built on this archetype and still have fun. Playing Conan should be fun (though, to be fair, he splashed in some rogue). Playing Lancealot should be fun. One ought to be able to have an enjoyable time running characters who pay no attention whatsoever to their mana pools, and at this point, what with restrictions on gear and restrictions on usable strategy, it's just not. This seems to be an attempt to inject a bit of flavor, rather than an attempt to give a power upgrade.
ShrikeDeCil: Another flavor upgrade would be 'tumbling/evasion' or 'throws/falls' or practically anything from the martial arts. Heck, 'attacks of opportunity'.
TobiasParker: My only winner was a classical hobbit assassin. Stealth + Critical hits = Dead uniques in one round, not morgoth obviously but if you only have to fight one monster at a time because the rest are asleep, the game is not that difficult. You can Use rods for identify/trap detection/recall, you can find most of them by the mid-game. I find warriors ridiculously easy compared to mages, not sure what the problem is here.
Derakon: It's more that the game ends up being a bit too simple. Not easy - just simple. In a given combat, you only have a handful of possible options, and usually one of them will obviously be your best choice. That means that playing as a warrior becomes a very straightforward matter of iterating your best strategy over and over again. In contrast, a mage has many options at any given moment, and it's not obvious which one is his best choice. Thus combat becomes more complex, and therefore more interesting.
TobiasParker: But adding in this feats/abilities will just make a warrior-class into a mage-class, except his abilities will be named differently. I believe that in roguelikes the point of the warrior class is to be simple. If you want a warrior that can "jump" to anypoint in sight distance then play a mindcrafter and get phase door, or just carry 20 phase door scrolls with you. If you want an ability to push monsters back get a wand of (crap i havnt played in a while) ummm (hrrrm) actually a wand of tidal wave would work (that wasnt the one i was thinking of, help me out here). Everything you suggest is already available to warriors, maybe not *all* of them to the same build, but the point of these games is to sacrafice one ability/skill for another. Also, why make the easiest class even better. lets give rangers some useful abilities.
Derakon: Thematic appropriateness (read: names) is important. Yes, some of these abilities imitate existing spell effects, but they're a) slightly to significantly different (e.g. Leap is LOS-only; Pulverising Strike only hits adjacent blocks), and b) more warrior-ish than using a wand or a scroll. I also don't think that every roguelike should play the same; ToME can have more complex (read: interesting) warriors if the developers like the concept. I'm just putting ideas out there. I don't think warriors are the easiest class; that falls probably to one of (Alchemist/Possessor/Symbiant). Finally, if you want to come up with some ideas to help the ranger out, be my guest; just don't put them on a node dedicated to warriors, please.
TobiasParker: Those abilities are more appropriate for warriors in name alone, since a warrior should heavily invest in magic-device anyway most of this would be repetitive regardless of minor tweaks to them. Also, i find T-O-M-E to be Significantly different (read: better) than any other rogulelike i have played. Finally, Alchemists are not even a legitimate class, Symbiants are munchkin beyond belief if played properly, I like possessors as a class but i think you missed summoners as the by far easiest. What makes warriors interesting is getting through a vault of GWoP without reliable methods of Disarm, stone prison, teleportation, or ranged cloud attacks.
ShoOb: I dont think that leap should be LOS, at most it should be 2 blocks away, but still in sight (i.e. no going through walls so you can skip a space. My reasoning is that great worms, which are a hundred or so feet long, occupy a single space, and if you think that anyone can jump that long... maybe tie in flight and levitation to it so that the range is increased with them (you can jump 3 with levitation, and 7 with flight; all still LOS). With trample, some monsters should be immune to it such as the more quick ones, maybe not immune, but the more agile and smaller the monster is should increase the chance of dodging this attack. If it fails they still hit you, and they are moved to a random adjacent square.
BucketMan: I'd just like to offer a general vote of no. I'm all for fighters getting more attacks, doing more damage, being able to wear heavier armor, etc. but giving them spell-like abilities seems silly to me. A bit too Diablo-esque, besides. There are plenty of skill points to go around. If a player playing a fighter wants spells or spell-like abilities, they can invest in the appropriate skill trees.
Derakon: Well, you're free to have your own opinion, of course. Of course the abilities I've suggested above are similar to existing spells; the important thing is that they aren't actually spells. I just feel like a warrior who's tough enough to take on a god in hand-to-hand combat should be capable of some impressive physical feats without resorting to magic to achieve them. This is one way to represent that.
Sirrocco: For another bit of perspective, an endgame fighter is the sort of character who can walk up to Glaurung and kill him with an axe. It might take a little while, but he can do it, without using any particular magical effects other than maybe a stack of potions. That takes a certain level of epic, but you don't necessarily get the full feel of it, because you're not really *doing* anything all that different from when you were walking up to random orcs and killing them with an axe. There really should be a place for Badass Normals. Also, there is a notable difference - unbelievers would still be able to leap across rooms with the power of their mighty thews, even without access to magic (assuming that that option were available). Likewise, leaping with mighty thews wouldn't be prevented by antiteleportation effects. (note further the possibility of balance issues here.)
TobiasParker:Tomayto/Tomahto.