ToME WikiChristerNyfalt: The number of options in ToME are too many in my opinion. It is way too easy to miss an important one in the mass of unimportant ones.
So, I would like to see a discussion on options to remove in futher versions of ToME. My suggestions on options to remove, suggested value in parenthesis:
- show_weights (Y) - Weights are useful to know what to drop when encumbered.
- confirm_wear (Y) - Everyone wants to avoid wearing a cursed item in most cases.
- alert_hit_point (Y) - Warns players before they sees the tombstone.
- stupid_monsters (N) - This one lowers difficulty when on.
- smart_learn (Y) - Increases difficulty.
- flush_failure (Y) - To avoid unstoppable disasters.
- fresh_before (Y) - Keeps the display up to date.
- dungeon_stair (Y) - Consistency, stairs won't disappear magically behind your back.
- disturb_near (Y) - To avoid to be killed in sleep.
I'm sure there are more that can be removed.
PrinceGarathor: I don't really agree. I think the defaults are pretty good if you don't want to pore through the list of options, and some users will inevitably miss whatever options are removed. They could perhaps use some reorganization, though.
NeilStevens: Ordinarily I'd agree, but a lot of the "efficiency" options can probably go, now that the speed of the lua interpreter is now easily the bottleneck in ToME performance.
MayLith: I make heavy use of some of the options mentioned above, and I'm sure others do, too. Removing them would make me very unhappy. I find the concept of removing options due to confusion as to which ones are "important" to be frivolous, at best. The problem is this: Different options are "important" to different people. Just because you never use an option doesn't necessarily mean that others don't use it.
As an alternative to removing these options, I suggest:
- Work up a help file that explains, in detail, what each option does. (And, when I ever get over this blasted cold/flu thing, I'll start in on doc again... argh. *snurfle*)
- (If this will help interpreter performance) Transfer some of these options from in-game options to birth options.
KhymChanur: Rather than removing options, a few thins could be done to improve the interface.
- Move the important and/or frequently used options to the start of each option section, and the seldom used ones to the end of each section.
Instead of just having sections, also have sub-sections, and even sub-sub-sections, like with skills: Magic -> Geomancy -> Air/Fire/Etc. This should make particular options easier to find, and seldom used options can be put into a "Misc." sub-section of each section.
NeilStevens: If we need that many options that we need subsections, we have too many. I'm opposed to removing options for no good reason, but in the case of ToME we have too many legacy options that do need removed. The efficiency options, for example, are stupid. The lua engine is so much slower than anything the C code does, that we should just remove them all (well, most) and set the fully-featured defaults.
ChristerNyfalt: Something needs to be done about the disturbance list at least. The options goes down to the last line of the screen, so a player might suspect that there are some options that didn't fit on the screen.
The only efficiency option I can think of that might get complaints is center-on-player, but I don't even see how useful that is for ToME anymore, since spell effects have no relation to screen size anymore.
MayLith: I use center-on-player constantly. It helps me not run ahead of myself into a pile of monsters down the hallway, etc., and generally helps me stay alive -- and I can use all the help with that I can get! I also use show_weights and a few others.
- Logrusmage: Please do not lock in center-on-player! I'v tried it with that on, and can't keep track of where I am in the map, or where the spot on the map i was just at is now. I found it unplayable, and soon switched back. Maylith says she needs it to stay alive, and i need it gone for the same reason. As far as I can see, there are likely to be many more on either side of this, and no amount of processor speedup is worth making the game unplayable for a significant number of players unless a similarly significant number find the game speed unplayable, which just doesn't seem to be the case.
DanRosenberry: I agree with Logrusmage. I have a friend who utterly hates center-view. I really like it though. What about an option for "display all options" or "display optional options" so that rare options are hidden unless needed.
NeilStevens: As I said, the options would be removed, with the fully-featured defaults on. Weights would always be shown, the view would always be centered, and so on. Options that remove features in the name of efficiency would just be removed, because lua is slow enough that there's no point in removing the features when the game is "slow" either way.
NerdanelVampire: Taking a look at the Efficiency options menu, I think all the Reduce and Avoid options can be safely removed, as can the option not to compress the savefile. I've never changed any of the Flush options and don't know if anyone else has so they could maybe be removed too. I think people should be asked first, though. Hilite player seems to have little importance either way but as long as people have preferences I would keep it. The special color options were defaulted to no and I think I like it that way although I don't have experience with each. Some things like yellow torch light don't really fit in ToME where there are multiple floor and wall types and yellow means sand.
- Logrusmage: Please do not lock in center-on-player! I'v tried it with that on, and can't keep track of where I am in the map, or where the spot on the map i was just at is now. I found it unplayable, and soon switched back. Maylith says she needs it to stay alive, and i need it gone for the same reason. As far as I can see, there are likely to be many more on either side of this, and no amount of processor speedup is worth making the game unplayable for a significant number of players unless a similarly significant number find the game speed unplayable, which just doesn't seem to be the case.
I tend to oppose removal of gameplay and flavor, though, unless those options are just untested and unsupported (like turning off preserve mode is).
MayLith: I agree. (And fwiw, I agree with you about subsections, Neil.)
ChristerNyfalt: What about the AI options (smart_learn, smart_cheat and stupid_monsters)? I feel that they should at least be birth options.
NeilStevens: I'm inclined to remove all those options, defaulting them all to their more difficult settings, except the cheat option which I would leave off.
NerdanelVampire: I think the AI options should remain optional. From my "gamist" POV I find it highly enjoyable to be able to figure out how the AI works and exploit it to my advantage. For example if the monsters are able to find a path to me through a big corner, it diminishes the significance of the geography and the number of strategies available to me, making the game simpler (although more difficult) and less interesting. No "simulationist" me, no.
NeilStevens: No worries; the AI isn't that smart even with all the options on. To my knowledge nobody's working on a major AI upgrade that some Angband derivatives got.
TheFalcon: Really? I thought I heard rumours of a new "Hunter AI" that was going to be implemented into ToME 3.0. Has this been put in to 2.3 already or does it not actually change difficulty that much?
NeilStevens: 2.3 doesn't and won't have such a new feature. I do know ToME 3 allows modules greater control over AI, but I don't know of anything new there. There might be, but I just haven't heard about it.
TheFalcon: There's a CMovie on angband.oook which demonstrates it here.
NerdanelVampire: I don't like it. I hope I can turn it off.
TheFalcon: Personally, I do like it, and while I wouldn't support the removal of options if others feel a definite need to keep them, it does seem strange to me that you can legitimately alter the difficulty of the game, simply by switching an option on or off. It may make the game "simpler", but I prefer to think of it as altering the actual types of tactic the player can use against specific creatures.
NeilStevens: That would be a new option, as it's an entirely new AI from the one that the current options pertain to. So really, it's not relevant to the current discussion.
Derakon: I for one leave stupid monsters on and leave the monsters at their stupidest. I've been doing this ever since I discovered back in ZAngband that some monsters with healing spells were effectively unkillable unless I got absurdly lucky, because as soon as they got remotely low on hitpoints they healed. Realistic as that might be, it made the game very much not fun. I'd be in favor of someone going through the AI options (hell, the entire game) with an eye towards maintaining balance and difficult-but-achievable obstacles. Then again, I also remove breeders and AI_ANNOY from my game solely because of lice and fruitbats in the barrowdowns (breeders with the equivalent of PASS_WALL in the first levels of the game?!). But I digress.
SinisterMinister: If alert_hit_points is set to Y permanently (which I agree with), will there still be an option to set the warning level? Also, IF monster AI options are kept, then I agree they should be birth options.