ToME WikiRavenRed: Just saying that stealing from stores should maybe not be modified by weight, but instead by item value. Stealing an iron shot should be easier than stealing a Ring of Critical Hits (+10%). The gameplay explanation for this is the simple "If it's valuable, I'll keep more of an eye on it". The Weight (in tenths of a pound) should maybe be replaced in the calculations by GP Cost (in hundreds). That potion of experience suddenly gets a heck of a lot harder to steal...
RavenRed: Just one additional idea, as an alternate effect to the store closing, there is also a flat 1 in 6 chance of each other store in the town closes. So if you reckon you can survive in a town where no-one trusts you, hombre, then go ahead... punk!
As a slight balance to this rather extreme outcome, the result of a vendor becoming tired of endless haggling should not be store closure, but perhaps the deletion of that item from the store's stocks. i.e. the vendor removes the item from sale. Therefore haggling becomes slightly less risky, whilst stealing becomes possibly fatal... ("Hmmm... the inn, the general store and the scribe's have all closed... how'm I going to eat?")
Chatter
MayLith: /me deletes my own long musings. I don't know. Very large and/or heavy items can also be quite valuable, too. My RandomComp1 character just tonight successfully stole a suit of Elven partial plate armour, and honestly that just blows my mind. I was fully expecting her to fail, but I just *HAD* to try... and she did it, beyond all expectations. I've never swiped anything that heavy and valuable before. (She did fail to steal a ROS, though she got an amulet just fine.)
RavenRed: No no, muse away... c'mon... like I'VE ever edited for the benefits of brevity...
Seriously though, a jewelery store isn't (or shouldn't) be easier to steal from than a used car lot. Using value as the basis for STORE stealing just reflects the way in which (I would like to think) store owners would set up their security. Kudos on your bigger-than-Petty Larceny. That takes steely nerve, as well as large-scale ritual sacrifice to the RNG. Congratulations! MayLith: Thanks. The RNG continues to be nice to me, which is rather worrisome. Well, maybe that's counterbalanced by the fact that Kaerracred is now male....rggh. OTH, I just found a 3-piece Rod of Gondolin... whee!! Not a bad find for the Orc Cave.
MayLith: Alright, musings then. I (unfortunately) am working high-end retail right now, and while I'm not specifically connected to loss control, I've learned a few things. I honestly don't want to elaborate too much as I don't want to give any low-lifes good ideas (not than any of our community is a low-life, but random browsers). But it seems to me that while opportunity is always necessary for successful theft, the size and value of the object is not nearly so important as other factors, such as pure theatrical ability and timing. There are also many ways of stealing indirectly.
To me, in terms of ToME, that makes theft ability far more dependent on the basic "Sneakiness" ability. Perhaps the basic ability to Steal should be affected by Sneakiness for larger and/or more valuable items. I don't know how it works right now...maybe it already works that way.
RavenRed: So you see the stealing ability as purely a reflexes based "pickpocketing" ability rather than a judgement/theatricality based pilfering ability.
MayLith: No, not at all. It's far more than reflexes. What I was trying to say is that "basic" theft might be Stealing, but really good theft might be further helped by high Sneakiness.
MayLith: Finally, a use for CHR!!!
MayLith: I think I like that.
SimonSorc's comment on store stealing (long): one thing that's missing is race & skill modifiers (and maybe social class, or God worship incompatibilities). If you're a paladin/ranger type High Elf running a temple store, you might keep an eye on Troll zombies with necromancy skill maxxed and a social class of 1 and a CHA of 6 as more likely to steal than to buy. You'd keep an extra eye on those expensive scrolls like *remove curse* and all that.
(Zombies may also leave a rotten flesh odor at the theft site which could mean identifying the thief even after he stole the item. Shop owners don't see that many zombies a day and aren't stupid. Getting caught after running away with the item is implemented in many games)
And once you have a CHA of 40 thru items, you're still a Zombie Troll necromancer with a social class of 1. You might get a CHA-based discount, but people would really really really keep an eye on not being stolen an item, or being stolen for their corpse. (-;
...but the reverse would be true. Why should an Ent priest of Yavannah distrust another Ent priest of Yavannah with stealing things? Stealing might be easier, but the penalty for being caught should reduce the trust all the same...
RavenRed: Good ideas. It is, I suppose, an expansion on the biases of different store-owner "races". And maybe class-linking would make it far more interesting. DEX should not be the only arbiter of stealing chances for the "nobler" classes.
SimonSorc: nobler classes would get hated by Barbarians selling weapons, necromancers who run a scribe store, Orcs/Trolls/Undead might hate the noble races & classes, and for every noble race there is another noble race with divergent affinities... and new races need to be added to the mix (Thunderlords and hermits don't get much hate/love effect).
Some permanent/longlasting effect in discounts (from a "No discounts for former thieves!" message up to negative discount whatever it would be called) would seem like an idea, as well as making that store owner raise a "distrust counter" by the value of the stolen/attempt stolen item. Only large skilltype/race hatred would ban someone permanently from a store from stealing a food ration once, but it could happen!
RavenRed:The flattening of discounts is an excellent idea, with haggling DISALLOWED for former thieves. They give you the compromise price and that's it, buster, no more discussion!
The item would also NOT be on display when you return after the store re-opens, like it happens sometimes. Shop owners may have an idea what you want to steal from last time. (-;
Shop owners could talk to each other, getting their distrust up and may ban a player from a store they never stole from based upon a well-earned thief reputation alone! Racial bias could influence how much a store owner believes a rumor about you or how much they care.
Also we lack a GUARD_FLAG for new monsters who would be aggravated by any stealing. Especially in large towns, some kind of crime repression specialists existed in medieval times (and racial/social class bias wasn't unheard of in its application, too). In most games getting caught stealing can kill you if you get caught before you can outrun/kill the guards and survive without store goods for a while!
As some kind of exception, the black market is supposed to be an underground thief thing, so maybe you'd never get a permanent ban - they might beat you up to less than 10% of maxHP and steal half your possessions (putting them on sale, even some from your nearest house if you don't have valuables on you), but stealing is their business so they wouldn't be completely turned off by thieves... and might even buy {100% discount} items that weren't stolen from the black market for some gold (stolen items are their ONLY business), and that would be fair if there was some terrible risks to be had when caught stealing.
In any case, it's ridiculously easy now to steal 50 speed rings in a row just to see if the store owner can come up with a better ring than you have; to steal experience, stat, and other rare potions; to rob stores for alchemic essences, or to steal a heavy/expensive dragon armor when you have not put any skill points in thief-like skills (newbies have done it. I've done it. Lost souls have no incentive not to try. It should need some SKILL not just somewhat high DEX).
RavenRed:Singing to the choir, mate...
In another order of idea, it isn't a good idea to equip right away what you stole from a store and show up at that same store 2 minutes later. Shop owners can recognize their wares...
ChrisAmes: I'll just say that I agree with all the ideas on this page. It would make stealingthings more interesting, not just 'I have 40 dex so I can scum speed ring shops'. DarkGod should implement them all!
SimonSorc: Nah. With DarkGod's approval, or some powers that be approval, you or I can code it the way the powers that be approved of. That might be quicker than waiting for DarkGod; even if he fully approves, it might be low on his priority list. And it might disagree with changes that might occur (i.e. classless system? New skill tree arragements? New shop system?) so we must consult. But yes we can write code! (if only in a module first for a test run).
New idea! Stores who are stolen from (with success) too often become suspicious. That prevents total scumming when in an ideal situation; it's more like "I'll get an average of 2 items before the store bans me for life. Should I start getting items now? Wait for higher DEX/steal? Wait until I really need something?". It makes stealing much more interesting.
Case study #1: I want that Elven dragon armor of defense. I'm the best thief there is, but it's a heavy and costly and the shop owner hates me a little because of my reputation, mediocre CHA, and race...
30% chance of getting that dragon armor {100% discount}. Note to self: try not to enter this store while wearing it (object origin already tracked by current code). Half a chance the owner will watch me very carefully for all of next month, which my sneakiness skill will warn me of (Thank Valar I put some points in that, rather than just stealing).
20% chance the store closes on me permanently but I get to run away with the armor while fighting/outrunning a few guards. Fortunately it's not an elf town so the guards aren't 20 *bleep* archers hidden in the woods!
40% chance of simply getting caught. Lots of guards. No armor. Rats!
10% chance of that evil vampire armorer casting a max-sanity halving curse on me (he learned that from FF. Duh), also lowering my luck by 10 for a month (not to mention store ban)! I knew I should have stolen from the black market and risk being beaten up and my home robbed/destroyed instead!!! Or from the weapon store, which will put a price on my head so I'll have to live thru 10 wilderness encounters with leveled headhunters... I might even be sold to the slave market if they manage to stun me KO if they choose the "alive" part of "dead or alive"...
...or maybe I should steal smaller things everywhere (hoping not to get banned of too many shops, but knowing punishment is milder for smaller theft), sell to the black market at 10% of regular black market price, and buy the armor! At least I'd be sure to get it, and I wouldn't die by lack of satisfy hunger scrolls...
Sounds much more like a decision than mindless scumming (the more alternative ends there are to an event, the harder it is to scum). Stealing should be as adventurous as it is rewarding (think of an ultimate winner with no {100% discount} on something... except for alchemists, it's rare).
And since the rogue class is rather weak, they should get good stealth, backstab, critical hit skills, etc. to compensate for being weak and weakened by risks added to stealing. And stealing should be a somewhat cheaper skill than it is now; it's such a shame to invest so much skill into something, and when you reach a decent steal level you can actually afford stuff and it makes stealing moot for all but the most powerful speed ring...
On the other hand, some thieves might use a disguise skill to reduce risks. Not that it protects from the evil curse or accidentally wearing something at the store it was stolen from, but helpful. It would also help moving around dungeons, where some humanoid monsters might mistake you for a battle-scarred veteran or an Uruk. (-;
VeryFoobar: I like the idea of lowering luck. Perhaps every time you steal from a store successfully, your luck should be semi-permanently lowered by 1. You could only get the luck point(s) back by donating to a new store, the Charity (or this could be a new function in an existing store). I think this would keep stealing useful in the game (if you happen across a climbing kit early), and help prevent steal-scumming.