ToME Wiki
Gameplay Discussion
Sirrocco: with Bucketman's permission, I trimmed out a lot of the old and mostly obsolete stuff. Feel free to roll back to whatever degree necessary if anyone feels I've not done justice to the archives. Those bits that boil down to Useful Tips have been so boiled, but they were *also* getting a bit long, so they've also been given their own page. Also, by popular request, a /Newblet's guide to not dying
BucketMan: Great! Thank you! Like you said...lots of changes, old material and answers to questions no longer relevant to more recent releases. Some day we'll have to make some real spoilers, but in the meantime, this is perfect. Meanwhile, if there's anything we particularly want to archive, we can move it to OldChatter
- Please do feel free to ask questions here. Append responses on to the bottom of whatever you're responding to, an new stuff at the bottom of the page.
Version 0.8.7
BucketMan: What builds are people playing these days? I notice that as time goes on, the Sirrocco-style high-speed builds seem to be getting increasingly useful. A lot of monsters are fast now, and some extremely so. (Like Reenen's +40 speed pterodons.) It used to be ok to choose between high speed or high hit points, but now it's difficult to do that. I seem to need both. Speed is starting to be vital for the middle game. I also notice that almost all of my characters are barehanded chi fighters. Which is odd, because there's a dedicated weapons school now, and Dr. Briefs hands out blueprints, so Technomancers are pretty much gaurunteed to get all the basic useful blueprints they need. Also, it seems like I need four schools to get a viable build. It used to be two was enough, and one was possible. Now, even with three I feel like I'm missing out on something. Kickboxing-Sumo-Kungfu is best three-school combination I've tried, but that suffers from no dex or Dodge. Judo instead of Sumo adds in Dodge, and increases your speed modifier, but requires you to study Ballet for Con. Four schools. That instantly cuts 20-30 points off final skillcap. But, lately it's seemed to me that diversifying helps a lot more than specializing, and I dislike relying on Chi Trainers for basic skills because their modifiers are so low. Thoughts?
ReenenLaurie: Well, I'll have to see in v087 now. Thanks I am very excited. I generally play the latest version. Always.
I must admit I've been doing the Kickboxing-Sumo, and then deciding where to focus next (Chi/Technomancy). I haven't had any pleasure with Chi, even after I changed my source to give me 9 skill points per level (BIG BOOST). But I haven't tried it that much recently I must admit. Can anybody give me some pointers on Chi based chars?
But I thought of it this way... You should have 2 sets of skill points (or maybe 3). 1 Set can only be spent on "skills and abilities" (ie. Chi, Barehand, weapons etc. and Double attack, immovability etc.) and the other set can only be spent on "attributes" (Spd, Con and the gang). Then the possible third set, which could go into either. My suggestion is 3 sets, and you gain 3 of each set per level. Obviously the exact amounts can be played around with, cause I guess 300 more skill points (not that I had level 30 even) is a LOT.
BucketMan: Hmm. This surprises me. I haven't heard anyone suggest there was any shortage of skill points in quite some time. Granted, Chi and Technomancy both require a lot of skill points to be useful...say about 60 or so, but they're more middle game directions. I wouldn't generally bother trying either much before level 25, though I remember a few versions back Sirrocco managed some successful Technomancer builds closer to level 15 or so. Really, the best use for Chi right now is the Aura light ability. Especially as a barehanded fighter, since (depending on int and willpower) 1 point of Chi, 5 each in Chi Gung and Regeneration, plus Aura light at 2, gives you perma-light requiring no equipment or skill slots for 13 skill points. This not only allows you to keep both hands free for Double Attack / Blocking combinations, it also allows you to keep your helmet slot free for damage resistances armor (motorcycle helmet for crush, infantry helmet for ballistics.) Makes the Ninja warehouse and Muscle Tower a lot easier. Really though, you don't see much use out of Chi until you've completely trained from at least two Chi Masters. A couple of options, though. If you study Turtle with Rosshi, Chi Bursts allow you to deliver tremendous damage at range. Combined with high speed, it eventually crosses the border into silly-powerful. (Up to 450 irresistable damage at range, anyone?) So much so that I'm going to have to find a good way to tone it down eventually. I think uniques are going to start having to deflect bursts. Flight from Crane can be useful, too. Once you get to Mr Popo and Kami the options expand a bit. Cure Conditions is very cheap, and pretty much eliminates the possibility of ever dying from the dreaded RRA cuts traps (one of the most frequent causes of death for mid-high level characters) plus it prevents problems from the stacked effects of dozens of con and speed drain traps. Then there's heal. I'm looking at a character now with about 70 points invested in Chi who can heal 1100hp of damage about every 30 turns. (Which also approaches silly-powerful.) My favorite chi ability is Battle Aura, but unfortunately it's a bit underpowered right now because none of the Chi 'Challenge Quests' are available yet, so Chi Offense maxes at about 20. It can be useful, but you kind of have to go out of your way to really take advantage of it. Looking at the numbers it takes about 60 points (and four Chi Masters) to make Battle Aura give you +20 to both to-hit and damage. A lot of those are points you're probably going to spend anyway as a Chi practitioner, though, so it's a nice little boost. Really, it's only Chi Offense and the Battle Aura Ability itself that you wouldn't do anyway, so it's 30 extra skill points for +20 tohit and dam, which is nice. (Compare to 30 skillpoints worth of Strength from Honda just to get +15 damage.)
EDIT: Gah! Chi Bursts are bugged. They worked two days ago. :/
Anyway, short answer: to play Chi:
- Right away invest just enough points to learn Aura Light, then wait until you have a good 60 or so points to invest in Chi, and can actually access two or three Chi Masters to learn from. This probably won't be until levels 25-30 or so.
- Remember that when you raise Chi skills, you MUST raise MULTIPLE Chi skills. No single Chi skill will do anything useful, regardless of how high it is.
- Start saving points by level 20. Don't max attribute skills. There aren't enough skill points to do everything.
- Int and will greatly affect your Chi Pool. At 10 Chi skill, starting stats will vary your Chi Pool anywhere from 60 to 140. Be sure to study at the library.
- To play as a spirit, you need at least a 300 Chi Pool when you die. That's a lot. Given current game limitations, it's only barely possible without a Dragonball wish. It can be done, but it's probably more effort than it's worth right now.
- Some builds work better for Chi than others. If you're going to play Chi (or Technomancy) you kind of have to plan it from early on. (Don't try to play a Technomancer with 6 Intelligence. Don't try to play Chi with 6 Willpower. Barehand doesn't work as well with Technomancy as Weapons and Firearms do. Technomancers make great marksmen. Chi fighters make lousy ones. Etc.)
- Remember that Dragonball wishes ignore skill caps.
ReenenLaurie: Sounds to me, like I've only once got a character to where the game actually starts... 
I've been able to access 2 chi masters easily... (Rosshi, and Karin's tower one...) And I believe I could do that every game.
BucketMan: Curiously, I generally end up talking to Karin before Turtle or Crane.
ReenenLaurie: Who is Turtle and Crane? (Rosshi and Urunai Baba would be my guesses)
BucketMan: 'Kame' = 'Turtle' in Japanese. Master Rosshi is the 'Turtle Hermit.' 'Tsuru' = 'Crane' in Japanese. Tsuru-Seni'nin is the 'Crane Hermit.' They are rivals, and in DBT they are mutually exclusive trainers, just like Shredder and Splinter. Once you train with one, you may never train with the other. (Kame, incidentally, should not be confused with Kami, who is the 'God of the Earth' who lives above Karin Tower.) Uranai Baba ('Fortune Teller Granny') is Rosshi's sister. There's actually in-game dialogue that explains all the various relations, but it may take some time to discover it all.
I made a full scale image of the new world map.
I just want to add for clarification... I didn't give myself 9 skill points because I felt I had too little. I just added it because I wanted to experiment with Chi/Technomancers without losing the "comfort" of the character build I know.
BucketMan: Feedback is welcome. There were a bunch of changes to both systems in V085, but V085 and V086 were both too buggy to really play much. They probably need some rebalancing still. Especially Technomancers. I haven't played one in months.
I have some questions:
- How does the library work? Do I gain less advantage from it if I don't apply by level 1? Or doesn't it really matter?
BucketMan: The library and gym both give attribute bonuses unaffected by skill, limited by player level. But, the points are applied retroactively. You're allowed to study/workout once at first level, and then again at every fifth level. (5, 10, 15 etc.) So, library gives a total of 21 points if Int, and the gym 21 points of Str. And, no, it doesn't matter when you become a member. The level limit only limits the total. Even if you waited until level 100, you'd still be allowed all 21 trainings. You'd just get them all at once instead of having to stagger them. (But eithrr way, you do have to actually do the store action 21 times.)
- I see people mention a hotel... Where is it? And how can I access it?
BucketMan: It's in the airport. It was one of the things that was skipped over in V086. To stay the night (or day) just go in and press 'h'.
- How do you deal with those really, really nasty traps. Is there anyway of trap detection and what is the skill needed for disarming?
BucketMan: Intelligence is the sole determinant of 'basic' trap detection. Intelligence + Technology + Dissassembly determines disarming ability. Beyond that, how you deal with traps will be build-dependant. For instance, a Technomancer can build and use a Metal Detector, which grants flawless and automatic trap detection. Flight makes you immune to random traps, and even a few 'dialogue' traps. Chi flight, Technomancer jetpacks, Kinto-Un, etc. all work equally well for this. Spirits are also immune to traps. If you don't know Technology or Chi, high Intelligence will help, but your best bet is to buy a first aid kit and learn first aid either from Dr Tofu or the YMCA. Then, simply cure yourself whenever your step on a trap.
shoob: strange, I always set off traps even with flight...
BucketMan: Huh. This is a bug. Pending.
- What does battle aura actually do? I just see a 1 light radius...
BucketMan: It adds your Chi Offense skill to your melee to-hit and damage, and your (Chi Defense * 2) to your AC.
ReenenLaurie: oh... that sucks, then I've spent Battle aura, and not gained anything for it (0 on offense, 0 on defense). Maybe later I'll spend some on it. But for now, barehand (1 SP every level), heal, flight, meditation, cure condition are my next priorities (Con too). I should look at a previous version that I can add a gym too for my present char (Tun IX).
shoob: I dont know why but my char seems to get a +2 or 3 radius not a +1, is the radius dependant on something that boosts it more than +1, I do have light aura, but it is not turned on (i.e. it is off)?
BucketMan: Battle Aura generates light, with radius determined by the size of your chi pool, anywhere from +1 up to a max of +4.
ReenenLaurie: Note... CURRENT chi pool, not you theoretical MAX. Typically after a big Chi Burst you're not giving off as much light as before it.
- Where is the gym?
BucketMan: Apparantly it vanished with the earth changes in V085. It has been replaced in DV. (Next to the library)
ReenenLaurie: Ok... my lovely level 37 chi guy got killed in one blow. I finished the muscle tower, and was wondering where to go next... So I went to the Vulcano. BIG mistake. I could heal enormous amounts of damage with very little Chi. I had flying, and I thought I was fine with the healing and stuff. I walked about 5 squares. Checking my health... It was not below 400... and BAM... dead. Something breathed fire.
Now I guess I should've gone to the place in the water...
BucketMan: Lots of monsters in the Volcano can breath for ~500 damage. If you're slow, or two happen to breath on the same round, you can easily take 700-1000 damage in a single round from monsters you haven't even noticed yet because they visually blend in with the lava. And not just fire. Poison and disintegration, too. Fire resistance is easily acquired, as is poison immunity, but disintegration cannot be resisted. I generally avoid the Volcano until I have around 2000hp and +20 or so speed.
ReenenLaurie: What does Chi Defense do?
shoob: I think that aura absorbtion depends on it (dont know if it is implemented yet, I know in 0.87 it was dependant on haste for some reason), as well as the battle aura bonus.
BucketMan: Whoops. You're right. Apparantly Chi Absorbtion is not implemented. And, since reflection isn't either, I guess that makes Chi Defense largely worthless, since all it actually gives you at the moment is the AC bonus to Battle Aura.
Maybe it should give you resists (to all?)... when active with elemental aura or some other kind of aura. That would make it really, really useful. Even broken.
Sirrocco: A few randoms.
- Chi Defense at this point is 2AC per point when you have Battle Aura on. That's less than it should be, given the design intent, but once you have enough Gung and Regen that you keep Battle Aura on as a matter of course, it's functionally equivalent to dodge. Dodge is not a bad skill.
BucketMan: Chi Defense is slated to effect Chi Damage Absorbtion efficiency, which probably won't be extremely popular, and it will also directly determine your ability to deflect incoming Chi bursts...which I think will be extremely popular.
- random thought: given that chi seems to be the default path (and given that it seemed like *everybody* of reasonably high level in the dragonball universe was either technomancy or chi but not both) why not lower the cost of technomancy but penalize those who try to do both. Say that every point in technomancy counts as a negative point in chi-regen or some such. It encourages people to try "how can I make technomancy work for me with no chi" builds, allows but makes marginally more difficult "chi master with a little bit of tech" builds and still prevents people from going with "chi+technomancy=ultimate power" builds. (and perhaps there could be a trainer somewhere who, after a difficult quest would teach you a cheap to moderately expensive ability that would cancel that effect, possibly mutually exclusive with another useful trainer or two.)
BucketMan: I think Technomancy will become much more popular once ego item creation and customizable battle suits are working.
Sirrocco: point.
- Shredder's requirement that you buy 100 stealth for his second rank is... expensive.
BucketMan: 100 Stealth shouldn't gain you anything from Shredder. 100 is just the cap that he is able to train to you. (Or a related note, his enrollment keys have bene fixed in DV.) He will have a second teir of chi training, but t will dependant upon the 'Defeat the Turtles' quest, which doesn't exist yet.
- Once the sea cannot be swum with a shovel, and Chi Defense becomes as useful as it's supposed to be, Master Rosshi is going to have trouble competing with Tsuru-sennin. He's harder to get to (if easier to find), harder to start training with, cuts you off from flying (unless that's fixed also) and requires that you come up with a whole lot of martial arts skill before he'll train you to the second bracket.
BucketMan: There are several sources of flying. Maybe too many, even. Tsuru-Seni'nin used to have a quest requirement, but it went away when the frozen wastes map was scrapped during the transition to earth-9. I agree the balance is wrong, but I haven't decided how I want to fix it yet. I'm not sure what you mean by the martial arts requirement. Rosshi requires no martial arts skill for anything. He does have a barehand skill requirement before he'll teach you Double Attack, but access to his second tier of chi training is entirely quest dependant. I wonder if you'r misreading the new yellow skill caps? Yellow indicates that a trainer is able to train you to a higher skill value than you are high enough level to actually learn.
Sirrocco: Ahhh. Much is explained. I'm still curious what I have to do to *get* that quest, mind... guess I'll have to go looking.
BucketMan: I don't think his second tier quest is available. Rosshi has been lagging for ages.
- The natural thing to do after you have learned all you care to learn from the Shredder is to challenge your old master and all his disciples to a duel to the death and slaughter them to a man. This pleases me, in a dark sort of way.
BucketMan: It's suposed to be possible to become the leader of the Foot Clan. Doing this will require you to defeat Shredder. This has not yet been correctly implemented, but you may remember shades of it back a few versions ago when all the Foot Ninja bowed at you constantly.
- Perhaps there should be a skill somewhere that can only be learned by first training fully under some master and then challenging him to a duel for supremacy, defeating his ultimate technique, and killing him. It is a notable genre trope.
BucketMan: Hmm. Ultimate Fighting is still not scripted. That's the skill that allows you to use barehand, weapons and firearms completely interchangeably. Any suggestions on whom to defeat/teach it?
Sirrocco: well, I don't know if it's entirely appropriate for *that* skill, but Musashi has a really obvious "and now the student challenges the master" conversation option.
- I'm playing a melee fighter, no firearms, no technomancy, who scummed long enough to pull both Daniel-san's headband and the dobak (some scumming, but not all that much - a not unusual result of running rabbits to level 10 or 12 and mansion (mostly) to 20) and then picked up the jagged sword of the rat-king (absolutely guaranteed) and haven't had anywhere that can actually provide me with a useful equipment upgrade up from that since the mansion itself. I did snag the Shredder's claw, but haven't yet had reason to use it. I'm level 38, I've never had nor had use for dual wield, I'll be picking it up in a few levels, and I'm not likely to have a use for it when I do get it. Now, I do understand that Dragonball T is a bit different, in that different levels mean different dungeons which mean different type of equipment. That's actually rather interesting - the problam is that I don't see that there are likely to be any dungeons in the future that will help either. If the Volcano has a decent drop set for people like me, then that's cool, and I'll work towards that, but for the moment I've not been able to find either the fan lady *or* the bird, and I'm not a sumo - which means that I've got a fairly strict upper limit on my Con (at least, so far) and suffer from some rather serious potential "breathe breathe die" issues, by all reports. Currently, I'm killing dinosaurs for the exp - I'll probably be done around about level 40, and then I'll have *no* idea what to do next. (undersea lab? run the Volcano with 800 hp and no fan? Get a huge pile of food and scum the ring of rocket sentries by running them out of ammo? I'd try offworld, but it's just not working really well right now, and I've still got a while before I'll be ready to even think about Gero.)
BucketMan: Blue's undersea lair is probably the next logical place to go. After that, you've pretty much reached the end of available material. Hopefully, the next release will open up both Namek and the RRA Supreme HQ. A mid-level technomancer-themed dungeon is also in the works, but that's probably two releases away. The current plan is that there will be two or three dungeon progressions that will be both logical and plausible, but more so for different character types. For example, for a technomancer or gun-wielder, MuscleTower-UnderseaLair-RRAHQ will make the most sense, because those areas have the most suitable equipment. For a chi-based character, Namek-Saiyan-Freeza will make more sense, again because the item types available with that progression are more relevant. I'm afraid we're in an awkward place right now because there is much more content available that is suitable for technomancers and marksmen, but the chi skills are much more developed, and thus more viable as an actual playstyle. As to equipment...yes, some general rebalancing is probably in order. There's an awful lot of items that I never use myself. A more gradual building up would be nice.
Sirrocco: It's also worth noting that there are some armor bits that are near-useless *anyway*. The quipao is a harder-to-get, more expensive, less armored version of the tutu. The heavy boxing gloves have a bad enough -hit/dam that they're not worth using in anything other than the artifact version, and not all that exciting even then. The profusion of armor pieces with slight AC changes isn't bad, but would be better with a somewhat more robust system of egos. I think the real balance issue is the polearm situation. Light in the first two dungeons is no longer a problem, so there really *isn't* a reason to go 1-hand rather than 2-hand, and spears/bo staves are just far better in terms of raw damage than any of the early one-handed weapons can hope to touch.
- Quick check - the android/bioroid options are not open yet, right?
BucketMan: Not yet. Corruptions haven't been implemented in the engine yet. On a related note, Fusion is waiting on a feature anticipated in alpha18: the ability to flexibly and temporarily grant the player use of special abliities.
Version 0.8.9
BucketMan: Granted, as maintainer my opinion is biased, but I notice that most of my characters lately have been weapons users who don't bother with Chi of Technomancy at all, instead focusing on Str/Dex/Con. V0.9.0 is very likely to give a lot of love to Technomancers, but what is everyone playing these days? Barehand is probably more powerful overall, but weapons fighters just have such an easy early to middle game in comparison that I find it difficult to struggle through to the point at which Barehand is at the advantage. I don't think V0.8.9 changes the balance at all, but from previous comments, I get the impresson that Chi is very popular amongst players. Personally though, I find that most of my games I take Sumo and take thousands of hitpoints over Chi skills, which are very expensive. I get the impression that most players play differently than I do. Maybe that's a good thing. I wouldn't want DBT to have an obvious 'best' character development strategy.
NerdanelVampire: In the last version I played weapon-users who went for ballet for dexterity and hitpoints. That didn't leave many skillpoints left for anything else. Some of my characters never even learned to swim and just avoided dungeons surrounded by deep water. I had to branch out a little though and study karate for martial arts so that I could identify basic armor.
NerdanelVampire: For quite a while I've been thinking that probably the biggest flaw in Dragonball T is how step-like it is. Maybe I should try playing a different type of character, but the step-wiseness seems very ingrained in it. I'll describe it from the fencing girl point of view.
I've found out that an effective way to start a game (with 10 charisma) is to buy an epee and study some fencing. The problem with this is that it takes every single zenii you have, and the white, yellow, and later orange belts you kill in the wilderness drop comic books and such. You're going to gain levels much faster by grinding belts than you're going to gain money to utilize your skillpoints. By about level 5 or so my characters tend to be strong enough to get past all the orange belts and reach the rabbit caves, which are an absolute joke by that point, if you beware of sudden sunsets of mega-deadliness and don't go past level 1. (It doesn't make sense to place an easy starter dungeon behind a much harder one.) Finally I can get enough loot to train my weapon skill as far it goes, and also raise my martial-arts to 6 so I can identify loot for selling and wearing.
Sirrocco: Well, I can at least help you out on your first step. If you set your speed to running from the beginning, you can just run around the yellow/orange belts. For me, I'm generally hunting rabbits before I hit level 2. You can even hit Marcus/Oolong for the knife pretty trivially at that point.
- I think the orange belt problem is build-specific. I usually make an orange belt my first kill at level one. As to the rabbits being wimpy by level 5, well, yes, if you're scumming the first level. But why would you do that at level 5? It's a level one dungeon, and there's quest monster at the bottom. Why not go kill him?
- Skimping charisma is very much not recommended. It's too useful to not have. The starting money is nice, marriage is very useful, it increases some quest rewards, and the dialogue options opened by it are sometimes very useful. I personally never start with less than 12. Also, heads up: the number of uniques you're allowed to have join your party is tied to your charisma. There aren't many who can join you yet, and the system isn't very useful at this point, but "high charisma party leader" is very likely to become a valid build in the future.
When the night sets the place to go is Mr. Satan's Estate. By this point I'm just strong enough to kill a single green belt if I stand on a staircase ready to escape if I drop low on hp, and my first priority is to get a good weapon, usually a spear or a bo stick, and after that an enchanted spear. The improved weapon plus plentiful experience raises quickly my level, and just as quickly I run at the weapons skill training cap at my dojo. At that point I have to continue scumming the Estate so that I a) reach level 15 and can dump my skill points on speed, b) get several thousand zenii to spend on memberships, c) (optional) find some equipment to fill my empty slots.
BucketMan: Why rush into memberships? At level 15, 1000 zeni for a gym membership only gives you four points of strength. 160 zeni spent at the Sumo school will give you just as much strength at level one.
In my last game I found a dragonball at that point, which was very annoying to lug around, as tutus and silk gloves appear to be much harder to get in this version, and I hadn't been able to marry Oolong yet for dragonball storage. And then I died...
Sirrocco: I believe that the "shops don't refresh" bug may be finally fixed - in the soon-to-be-released version of the TOME base, if not in this one. That would make purchasing tuxedos and mirrorshades a lot more doable, and simplify your dragonball storage issues. Also, you can pick up useful skills from outside trainers as well - the turtle/crane teachers, shredder/splinter, and so on.
BucketMan: It's marked as fixed in alpha18, yes. But:
- If you need charisma, why not simply train it at the Robbins Institute? Or, even if you don't want to spend the skillpoints, there's still no reason to insist on finding charisma boosting items randomly? You can buy tutu's from the Ballet school. You can buy Qipao, tuxedos, mirrored shades, and crocodile boots from the Megamall. As many items types as there are that boost charisma, there are bound to be some available. And if it's really an issue, you can always check the stores at the start of the game.
- Also, Remember that you don't have to marry Oolong at all. You can always rent the airport hangar. Or become a Technomancer and use Dr. Briefs' Lab for permanent storage. Or take Sumo, train strength and just lug the things around. Or, just abandon the dragonball. Dragonballs can be found infinitely many times, and they're not worth dying for when you can just find them again later.
The problem with the dojo challenge is that by the time I meet the training cap I'm nowhere near powerful enough to take it. I would then switch to ballet lessons, but the last version changed the timing of the King Mouse quest so that if I want the sword (and I do) I need to do the quest before taking any lessons and if I want to not die in the quest I have to be level 15 with plenty of speed. So I have to scum Mr. Satan's estate before I can advance my abilities in anything other than parrying and the occasional membership.
BucketMan: Again, I think it's a build issue. I've completed the Mouse Hunt at level 12. As to Challenge quests, yes, here I agree. It's extremely rare for me to be able to finish them as soon as they're offered. Which would be fine if there were more options. It's a good time to complete the first five or six World Tournament matches, and it's a good time to start looking for weapons in the Ninja Lair, but personally I usually just scum Mr Satan's estate for levels too. The Turtle quests are suposed to fill in this gap, but they've been waiting for suitable companion code. Hopefully V0.9.0 will have this.
After that point, I have to scum Mr. Satan's estate some more although by now it's easy and boring. Red Ribbon Army headquarters is badly suited to weaponfighter style of play, making it both difficult and unrewarding in loot, unless it has been changed drastically since last version. Well, at least the experience is there, and clips sell for a lot. In the past I developed my technomancy skills at this point, but then it got changed to require real skillpoints, which meant I couldn't afford it anymore. Meanwhile, the lack of level-suited weaponry starts to bite. Unless it was changed since the last version, there is no dungeon to get weapons from between Mr. Satan's Estate and the Volcano - a huge gap in danger level - save for a scant few weapon-dropping uniques.
Sirrocco: Getting in more dungeons to play with (a technomancy track dungeon between rabbit and RRA, a chi track dungeon between Mansion and Volcano(Namek?), and so forth) is on The List, but it's likely not going to come all that quickly.
BucketMan: If you're just looking for weapons, try the Ninja Lair. Ninja-to and ninja claws are extrmely effective, and are native to dungeon level 15. I've used ordinary (+0,+0) ninja-to to clear Muscle Tower, and by that time you can usually afford to have them sharpened, or buy a better sword if you want. Also...in what way is Muscle Tower badly suited for weapons players? I think Marksmen/Technomancers have it easiest, but weapons fighters have it a lot easier than barehanded fighters. Bullets ignore Dodge and AC, so barehanded fighters end up with a lot of skillpoints spent that don't benefit them here.
NerdanelVampire: Ninja equipment are tricky because my characters cannot identify them. And you need to spend skill points to learn swimming in order to get them.
Sirrocco: Sorry I didn't catch this before - it is actually quite possible to get to the ninja island without swimming. I go there with just about every character I make (should they live so far) and I think the last time I bought swimming was back when waiting until level 20 to spend skill points (if you could pull it off) was an actual plan - and not because of Chi masters.
It seems that I'm always scumming for levels/money/loot so that I can rise drastically in power level once in a while.
Next time I'm going to have to try a barehanded fighter.
Finally, Lunch is way too deadly with her grenades. I don't consider it cheating to cheat to survive when I meet her.
Sirrocco: One of the new bugfixes is that she no longer shows up on safe squares.
BucketMan: Note that 'safe' means either of the areas around the World Tournament and Oolong's Castle. It is possible for her to spawn in the area with Mr. Satan's Estate. However, it happens rarely, and there's a clause that prevents her from spawning there before the character reaches level 10. In any case, if Lunch is a problem, remember all you need to do is leave. Her sneeze messages are visible from anywhere on the map, even if you don't have line of sight. So, she should be very easy to avoid.
Sirrocco: Well, I've been playing for a bit, and I notice these things about the early game:
- The earliest dungeon that is not dark at night is the mansion. By the time night falls, you'd better have either a decent damage-dealing capacity with one hand full or the ability to survive the mansion with a two-handed weapon. This is not particularly a change, but it is significant.
- The rabbit cave no longer has anything approaching decent drops. It has no real weapons, no flashlights, much less armor, no toxic waste, and a whole lot less money in general. This means that the player's ability to bootstrap themselves up via rabbit-scumming is pretty thoroughly crippled. Especially with the price bug on library and gym, you won't make much more than level 12 if you want to leave before nightfall, you won't be able to accumulate the 4K you need for both memberships, and you won't be able to get much in the way of gear regardless. It looks like it really might have hit the point where once you can kill the big guy at the bottom, you might as well move on. Is the rabbit cave still capable of spawning artifacts at all?
BucketMan: All object themes were completely re-written. I'll add in flashlights, but otherwise...aren't your expectations a bit high? It's a level 1-4 dungeon. Why should you want to still be there at character level 12? I've just tested by rushing through with a new character, and on the first level I found 72 zeni, a lightweight gi[5], a tai chi uniform[7], a headband[0,+5] and a mouthguard. By the bottom I had found a dozen pieces of armor, two knives, and over 500 zeni. What are your expectations? As to artifacts...I haven't specifically changed anything there, but which artifacts were you expecting to find? Again, this is the lowest level dungeon in the game. How often do you go artifact hunting in the Barrow Downs?
Sirrocco: These are not complaints. This is noting the new reality - which, while not unreasonable, is quite a change from the old. In particular, it was the first few thoughts towards building a strategy set to deal with the new situations. I have no expectations. Looking back, I can see that my language was a bit on the "grrr" side - but that has more to do with making my own preferred playstyle more difficult (which, perhaps, it ought to be, seeing as how it translates to "do freakish and silly things for long-term power") than feeling that this was the wrong direction for the game to go in. My question about the artifacts - well, an awful lot of headbands, soccer balls, and umbrellas how up in the rabbit caves these days. In the past, spending some time in the rabbit cave led to a decent chance of coming up with one or both of the artifact headbands - both of which are quite useful for early characters. Daniel-san's is *very* useful. The question is whether or not it's actually useful to pick up every headband you find on the off-chance of getting lucky. (mind you, it's worth doing anyway, for the first bit, because you can get them at up to +5. I'd meant after that.) Beyond that, it's not so much a question of how far I feel like I ought to be able to go, as what to do next. I'll probably take a look at the sewers (which I actually never did in a serious way with any of my other characters). Actually, the levelling is a bit odd. If I remember correctly, at level 9ish, I pretty much get a level for killing four or five giant rabbits and plowing through the smalls and larges in between them. Certainly the early part of the levelling curve goes quickly wherever you are.
Sirrocco: ...and I've pinned down one real issue with respect to the start of game. Specifically, the rabbit dungeon starts out being quite kind to low-strength characters with two-handed weapons, but goes starkly lethal at sunset if you don't have a usable flashlight and one-handed attack (or a quite large amount of AC/HP). If you do have a flashlight and a usable attack, it only becomes significantly more dangerous and difficult to maneuver around in. Checking the time is tied to owning a watch. Those first few power brackets in the game feel rushed, because I know that night is going to fall, and I don't know *when*. It would be nice to have an appropriately timed "the sun is starting to set. It will be dark soon." message sent out to everyone in a position to notice. Alternately, let the time function return a specific time if you have a watch, a vague indication if you can see the sun ("the sun is just rising/the sun is high in the sky/the sun will be setting soon") and nothing if you are not in a position to see.
BucketMan: Good idea. Implemented in DV. I don't understand why it's such a problem though. Flashlights are about 13 zeni. Why not simply buy one before going into potentially dark places? And if you're using a two handed weapon, why are you in the Rabbit Hole?
BucketMan: On a related note...would anyone finding artifacts or ego items please make mention of it? I've noticed that ego items suddenly seem tremendously more rare than they used to, and I've started wondering if something was changed by alpha17 that requires modules to specifically create them ourselves.
Sirrocco: I haven't run into any yet, after a few character's-worth of moderately enthusiastic scumming of the rabbit cave (anemic by my own standards, but...) and some early probing of the Mansion. Not even anything poorly made or with training weights. I *have* run into some moldy food, but I'm not sure that counts. I've also encountered the occasional dragonball.
NerdanelVampire: I also have seen moldy food now and then, but no other ego items. Artifacts in Dragonball T have always been such that you might get one randomly generated fixed artifact in twenty games, if you get lucky.
NerdanelVampire: I tried a barehanded fighter (karate/judo/ballet) and noticed that the gameplay was considerably smoother and easier than my weapons fighters and I no longer had much trouble affording classes and memberships. The problem is the lack of sensible things to do after the mid-twenties or so. There really should be more dungeons suitable for different playing styles. Dungeons don't take that much time to implement anyway, so I think they should be moved up in priority.
BucketMan: It's funny...I almost exclusively play weapons fighters now because I find them so much easier to play. It seems to me that barehand doesn't really come out ahead until level 40 or so, and I don't usually last that long. Dungeons themselves don't take long to implement, but it's the 'everything else' that goes with them. DBT dungeons average about 2.5 special levels each. Most of them have associated quests. Lots of them have associated dialogue. Many of them have custom monsters that appear nowhere else. I'm trying very hard to keep anything from being 'generic.' For your play style, though...what have you done by level 20, and what are you trying to avoid? Personally at level 20 I'm setting my eyes on Muscle Tower. I find the biggest gap to be around level 14, at which point Mr. Satan's estate is easy, but Muscle Tower would be hopeless. I'm working on the ninja quests and dungeons for V0.9.0 now, so that should help, but I agree. It would be nice to have more dungeons so that at any given point there'd be more choices about what to do next.
Sirrocco: the only real advantage of barehand is AC. Specifically, the bit where you get your parry nearly free along with your skill, once you buy defense. It saves you some money, but you lose that back out again in lack of salable weapon ID. You do less damage - and that's pretty close to a straight flat truth. The only way I could see the damage curve swinging the other way is if you just didn't take the time to keep your weapons up to date. You don't have the skill penalties, but those get taken care of with to-hit enchantments pretty early on. Double attack, at 20 skill points, is a serious candidate for dragonball wish, but otherwise *very* pricey. I have tried playing a karate/judo/dance character with starting stats 10str, 14int, 14will, 6dex, 6con, 10cha, 10spd. With a bit of investment in martial arts and a bit of attention to my kit, I was pretty capable (once I finished that entertaining little bit at the beginning). The dodge+barehand-block raised my AC up high enough that the con wasn't even an issue in the early-middlegame. On the other side, weapons combat has so *many* entertaining abilities. Bleeding wounds! Riposte! The only real disadvantage is that you have to pick either AC or free skill points. If you can get to the Con and Speed early enough, then the AC that you get off your armor should be adequate to keep you alive, and it's not really an issue. *is not entirely coherent*
NerdanelVampire: I realize I'm playing Dragonball T in a way it really isn't intended to when I'm treating it as a dungeon crawl with incidental quests instead of an adventure game with incidental dungeon crawling, but well, that's my playing style. I guess I'll just have to stick to developing Zothiqband so that there's at least one ToME 3 module developed after my personal taste.
Sirrocco: About level 20 you're supposed to take some time out and do the questing thing. Pick off any dojos you haven't cleared yet, finish the World Tournament, and, assuming you're going chi rather than technomancy, start running the chi thing. If you can pick up enough to maintain battle aura and flight indefinately, you can fly to Namek, which should make things more interesting. Incidentally, I do like the idea of going judo, but I'm a bit balked by the amount of dex necessary to pick up con from dance - particularly now that running (one of the significant advantages of dex) hoses down the other dex bonuses.
BucketMan: Interesting to see how we each do different things. Again, for me at level 20 it's time for Muscle Tower. I can rarely do challenge quests or the World tournament past round five at that point. As to enrollments, they've been static since about V0.8.5. It might be time for a review. While I was in Japan, I took a kickboxing class and I was amazed how at completely slow the style was. Speed gains from kickboxing don't make as much sense as I originally thought they did. Dex requirements from ballet probably do need to be reduced. I'll give it some thought. Unfortunately Ballet and Ninjutsu are both completely crippled for lack of Challenge quests, and half of the Chi masters don't work quite right yet, so I'm not completely clear on where it is and isn't practical to substitute Chi masters for schools. By the way...if you're studying Judo, why would you bother with Ballet? Judo's Dex bonus is equally as good, so the only thing Ballet gives you would be Con. Judo is about speed and high AC. With the best dex and speed mods in the game, and potentially an extra 200 AC from Dodge, I would think Chi Masters would be your chosen source of Con, not Ballet.
Sirrocco: It's a thought certainly - but that means that you have to get chi masters opened up before getting con. Tsuru-sennin requires that you kill a wolf (and then survive a little surprise). Rosshi requires swim + stuff. Getting to the cat requires about 300 health, and if you're going heavy chi, you really want to get to him *before* level 30. Technically, kickboxing could give you con as well, I suppose, but...well... the skill ratio just isn't as good as with sumo/dance. I'm considering ways to rework the character so as to get 14 con initially (rather than 6) and not worry about where I get it from at all. Incidentally, feedback from the sewer - if you can ambush greens from the stairs, you're probably better off doing that. The sewers are large, poorly lit, and annoying, and it just doesn't take much to go from "beating up singleton greens, from the stairs, with difficulty" to reliably plowing through them, and shortly after that happens, your equipment and money situation improves noticeably. If you're coming out of the rabbit cave at level 5 or 6, and really, really don't want to go back, it might be worthwhile, but the difference between unlit and well-lit is *huge*. If possible, I'd suggest that you figure out a way to have fully lit dungeons that are not revealed instantly at level entry. It'd close that particular gap by a fair margin. Also, having nuetral nonmoving plants sit in the middle of the only way to the up-stairs? I notice that shuriken require technology skill... seems a bit odd, really.
Version 0.9.0
BucketMan: Another month, another version. By the way, has anyone made it to the Red Ribbon Army Supreme HQ? I know it's late-middle game, but there are some really fantastic things going on there. I think we may need a spoilers page soon. I get the impression that there are a lot of things going on that nobody knows about.
BucketMan: Two versions and still nobody has made it to the Supreme HQ?
Version 0.9.1
BucketMan: Looking above...hopefully V091 will generate a little more dicussion than V090 did.
* Guest: What ways are there to get from undead to non-dead? I thought of dragon balls, but I can't pick up the ones I have in my house anymore, so that won't work. I'm currently wandering around on earth, trying not to get perma-killed.
BucketMan: Yes, you're supposed to be able to use the dragonballs to wish yourself back to life. Not being able to pick up dragonballs from your house is a bug. Discarnate players are supposed to be able to pick up and carry any artifact. I've fixed this in DV.
Sirrocco: I'm not certain about this, (having not worked with the applicable stuff in a while) but there should be a few sufficiently powerful NPCs who can manage the trick. You'd have to ask someone else to find out who they are (and which are implemented) but I think that at least the guy in the center of the serpent road qualifies.
BucketMan: Emma will ressurect any player once provided they give him a friendly reference. Just be sure to pay very close attention to what he says. He means it. But, in theory a clever player should be able to get a nearly instant free ressurect once every game. (Though it becomes less intsant once you're no longer neutral since you have to talk to Emma to cash in on it. Going to Heaven can be mildly inconvenient in this case.) Hint: talk to Karin. You'll notice he has some mutually exclusive dialogue options when you first speak to him. Which path you select has some non-obvious effects on later dialogues with the appropriate people. Kami will also ressurect the player, once, under certain circumstances relating to the Demon King Piccolo quest tree.
* TheCheeto: Not sure if this is how you do this, but it's worth a shot. How exactly do I ride motorcycles? I have it out of the capsule, but all I can do with it once it's on the ground is pick it back up in the capsule again.
SkizzaltixZaxali: Are you able to ride motorcycles? That is, do you have the ability?
TheCheeto:Yes, I've purchased the Motorcycle Riding ability from the YMCA. I bought a Motorcycle in a capsule, I used the capsule, then the bike's on the ground. What do I do from there?
BucketMan: Vehicles are 'weilded' into the vehicle slot just like any other item. To ride, press 'w' to weild, and then press - to access items on the ground. I'm playing with it now, and the interface is a bit klunky. To dismount, use 't' to take it off like anything else. It will then be depostied to your inevntory where you can re-encapsulate it via the 'u' command. I'm playing with it now...and you're right...the interface is a bit klunky. I'll see if I can clean it up.
* TheCheeto: I'm having one more problem. At random times, running into an enemy doesn't attack them anymore, it merely pushes them out of the way. This cost me big time in the World Tournament. Is there any way to fix/prevent this short of starting over?
BucketMan: Kinto Un is incorrectly putting you at high altitude and not allowing you to come back down. See the description and solutions listed on the bug report page. Short answer: either never press < while riding Kinto Un, or engage another form of flight and press > to reduce altitude, or execute 'dball_data.flying_high=0' via a debug command.
* After smashing the surveillance computer in RA supreme HQ, how do you get further? I didn't find stairs down anywhere.
BucketMan: Yay! After almost a year someone has finally made to RRA SHQ!
Look on your map. There are four dungeons, each with their own special levels: - Camera Control
- Missile Turret Control
- Auto Turret Control
- Supreme Headquarters
The location of each is randomly generate with each new game. When you arrive on level 42 you'll receive an 'intruder alert' warning that will let you know which area you're in. Then you can decide whether to proceed further to destroy the control computer in that particular portion of the complex. All you really need to do is kill Commander Red and Adjutant Black in the Supreme Headquarters, but you can make that easier by first destroy the computers that control the various defenses in the complex. When camera control is destroyed, the cameras in all four dungeons will cease to function. When missile control is destroyed, the eternal missile turrets that blast you above ground will no longer be able to fire. If you destroy auto turret control, the auto turrets in all four dungeons (and on special levels) will no longer fire. The SHQ has a very difficult special level, and disabling its defenses first is likely to make it much esaier to complete, but three of the four dungeons are completely optional, if you can defeat Red and Black without completing them first.