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General Chatter
ReenenLaurie: I just want to say, thank you for another excellent release (v087), and in general thanks for showing us what is possible with T-Engine. (Which will very hopefully be able to restock stores soon).
I've also now been looking at some of the DragonBall Z reruns on our national TV channels, and then realizing how cool this game really is. I love the humor!
BucketMan: Thank you.
And just a month ago you were asking if you should bother playing DBT. :P
I'm starting to dabble around in your code, and thus generally becoming more adept at Lua, and to a smaller extent the T-Engine's way of doing things.
My biggest frustration at the moment is that the game slows down so much after you hit about level 20. Then the amount XP needed for the next level just seems insanely far, and I generally don't feel ready for the more dangerous parts yet.
BucketMan: Slowdown at level 20? Curious...I usually go from 20-25 in less time than from 15-20. Granted, there aren't a lot of suitable dungeons in that level range, but level 20 is usually when I mop up unneeded instructors. Four or five 20th+ level uniques over the course of five minutes makes for some very fast levels. Then, after that I usually I do the middle third of the Tournament.
I can generally get someone up to level 20ish in an hour or so, but then gaining another two would take me forever. Going up in the World Tournament helps, but if you lose though, it's tournament over. And no more chances of getting quick XP there.
BucketMan: Losing the Tournament isn't the end of the world. It won't adversely effect the storyline much at all. When do you take on instructors? At level 20, your choices are basically: a) eliminate instructors b) World Tournament c) Muscle Tower. You're the first to mention any slowdown at this range. I have two dungeons pending for the 30-40 range, and of course the planet Namek, but I didn't really think we needed anything more for the low-twenties.
ReenenLaurie: Ok, yes, it's not quite 20, it's more to about 27. When I do kickboxing-sumo, I do Judo instructor at about lvl 12. Which jumps you high enough to get double strike. I don't think I know where Muscle Tower is... I thought it's Karin's tower, but apparently not. Where is it?
BucketMan: Ahh...yes, without Muscle Tower, the middle-late 20's would be pretty harsh. It's a levels 21-26 dungeon with two special levels and several uniques, located in the snow of the mountains northeast of Karin Tower. Looking at your worldmap, it's near the extreme upper right, cradled in the mountains. After Muscle Tower, the next dungeon is General Blue's underwater lair, which is in the middle of the ocean in the extreme upper left of the worldmap. Be forewarned, while it's possible to clear Muscle Tower even starting as low as level 20 (it's been done) both of these dungeons will be absolutely deadly to the unprepared. (You've marked this page as non-spoiler, so I'll refrain from too much detail, but many things will be different than you're used to.) Fortunately the Snow Patrol is disabled in the current release, so getting in will be much easier than it's supposed to be.
ReenenLaurie: The one which says "Red Ribbon Army personnel ONLY!" ? 'Cause I know of that one, but I find myself kind of very scared in there. I am not "comfortable" there even at level 36. The fact that they keep blinding me (even with my funky shades) really makes me feel not good.
BucketMan: That's the one. Just tested, and you're right...apparently blindness resistance wasn't working properly. It was a disagreement over whether blindness was a percentage, or a boolean resistance. Fixed in DV. Sunglasses, shades, EVA suits, etc. now all grant 100% resistance to blindness.
ReenenLaurie: I am not going to say a lot... just. I HATE TRAPS... 
BucketMan: As mentioned previously, traps will kill you dead if you don't do anything to stop them, but there are lots of ways to deal with them and they're fairly trivial if you take appropriate precautions. You wouldn't go into Mordor without trap detection, right? Well, don't go into Muscle Tower without either first aid, flight, or a metal detector.
SkizzaltixZaxali: I started playing a game this evening, and got to level 6 in about 45 minutes. I was putting all my skill points into Judo, which might not have been the best idea, but I started out with 10 Charisma, so I didn't have anywhere near as much cash as I use to. And I noticed... Levels 1-4 are a real drag. Until you're strong enough to take on yellow and orange belts, all you can do is run around in the first area looking for wannabes. As I figure it, there are 2-3 of them for every map generation. Add to this the fact that the player probably won't find all of them, and that's maybe one experience point for every generation, which gets boring quickly. I almost feel like you need a "starting dungeon", kind of like the Den of Evil in Diablo II. I don't know where you'd put it and what you'd call it, though... And after I got to level six, I thought: "What's the point? I need to find I quest." I think I took a wrong turn though... Got cocky and took on a green belt.
That was the end of that character
So, I wanted to know. Is there a good dungeon/quest to rack up cash and experience early on?
BucketMan: Whoops! Looks like the guide parchment you start the game with needs to be updated. It gives incorrect locations under the 'getting started' section. To get to the starter quests, follow the road west out of town and look for Aru village off the side of the road. You'll be given two quests suitable for low level characters. The Rabbit Hole may be found enclosed in the trees just southwest of the village. Levels 1-4 really shouldn't take more than a couple minutes. Judo is probably not the easiest starter school, but neither is it crippling. If you want easy, try kungfu, or kickboxing to start. Also, try buying a weapon at the martial arts store. I just tested a new character all 10 in all stats, and just by buying a weapon I was able to make level 5 in under three minutes without investing any skill points at all.
Sirrocco: For perspective, I generally start by buying a spear or bo staff, flipping on run for the speed cheese, and killing either a yellow belt or orange belt as first kill. killing an orange belt as first kil gets you to level 3 immediately. If I'm playing a build that *really* hurts itself in the beginning-game, killing a yellow belt followed by an orange belt will also get you to level 3.
SkizzaltixZaxali: I know where Aru village is, but I never go there early on, because of the Orange belts. I can only deal with those guys once I'm level 2, and so I spend the first level scumming the WT area :/
Ikaruga : Hi, I'm new here and hope it is the right place to post this. I have a sggestion about the new Foot Clan Ninjas dungeon : it's a bit too "basic" compared to the other dungeons (rabbit hole, sewers are great ) I felt like I was playing Angband and there's only one diffferent monster. First, Foot Ninjas were purple; then, you could make different ninjas : purprle could standard hand to hand fighters, white could be shooters (throwing shuriken and knives), red could be tankers (less damages but more resistant), black could be magicians (throwing smoke bombs or having low damage but poisoning attacks, something like that...)
(more or less based on the video game Ninja Turtles 4 on Super Nintendo)
And also, more different rooms instead of cooridors, empty rooms, corridors ....
BucketMan: There are actually a couple varities of Foot ninja, but they all look the same and have the same names. You'll have to examine them to distinguish them. They're ninja after all. :P It is a bit dull, though. Spicing it up a bit is definitely an option, though I'm not sure we really want poison and blind attacks at that stage of the game. I'll think about this.
Balance Chatter
ReenenLaurie: Hi, I just realised... that if you want strength training, you either have to study karate or sumo (gym is not in v087, but I don't think you can "train"). Girls HAVE to study karate. My current char started with 6 strength, and studied Judo. I wanted to go with barehand kick-boxing, but then realised I won't be able to study strength any more... You can study Dex in several places. (Judo, Kungfu, Ballet, Ninja)
Can we get more places to study strength?
BucketMan: Well, it's sort of by design that not everybody can do everything. At the very least, let's wait until the Gym is back. It gives everyone a net +21 strength regardless of school selection, so everybody can and will have strength regardless of gender and class choice. You might also try studying with Rosshi. I believe he offers some strength training as well. (I think Mr. Popo does too.) Failing either of them, not everybody needs to be strong. Worst case, you can always use capsules to carry dragonballs.
ReenenLaurie: I think he offers Con, not Str.
BucketMan: Ahh. So he does. I'll give him strength too. Very in-theme. Oh, also, I missed one: The muscle stimulator allows anyone and everyone to get a free extra +10 to strength over the course of the game, similar to the gym. You do have to find or build one, but there is a gaurunteed way to get one even if you're not a Technomancer
I am also thinking that sumo and judo should not be opposing? Sumo wrestling is very much about throws and trips similar to how Judo is. Though I actually don't know a lot about martial arts) I thought sumo and kick boxing could be opposed. And then maybe Judo and Karate. (Also to oppose the sumo-kickboxing build, which seems to be the biggest build at the moment).
Please feel free to correct/oppose me, as I really, really, know nothing more than I've seen on TV about martial arts of any sort.
BucketMan: The school oppositions are primarily to compel the player to make interesting skill development choices. Each pair offers useful, but mutually exclusive skills/abilities. For example, if you're a barehanded fighter, you have to choose between Karate and Kickboxing, meaning you have to choose which you want first: Double Attack or Blocking. Same thing with Kungfu vs. Fencing: Do you want Paired Weapons or Riposte? Along those lines, Sumo and Judo are in opposition specifically because they are similar. Though, the storyline relationship between Yawara and Honda is obviously much friendlier than some of the other instructors.
SkizzaltixZaxali: I don't think Lunch should appear so early on. My level 10 sniper was just wandering around the area with the firing range knifing orange belts, when she sneezed. I noticed her at the top of the screen and started running for the edge of the map with +7 speed, but she took me out with three grenades. Maybe the damage of the grenades and whisky bottles and things should be relative to the player's level?
BucketMan: It's starting to seem like fully half the player base has problems with Lunch. I don't understand it. I've not been killed by her since she was first introduced, ages ago. I'm not going to scale her damage by level. Remember that she can join the party. But I suppose I can can up with something. Maybe give her a tavern to hang out at and prevent her from randomly spawning until the player has 'released' her. I don't want to nerf her or make her less accessible. She's a very useful unique.
ElCuGo: For me lunch appeared in the WT area, and for some reason my alignment droped to evil. When i noticed she was there I was too close to her and too far from the edge, I lasted like 3 turns against her. It doesn't help that levels are very large and every monster is represented by a 'p' (Which also makes looking for Buruma very annoying.)
SkizzaltixZaxali: Part of my problem with Lunch all of a sudden is this is the first time I remember meeting her. The other part is she minced me in less than four turns, with me a full screen away and running, which always puts a damper on things. I think she'd be good if you made it so she wouldn't do the same thing twice in a row--That is, she can't go 'grenade, grenade, grenade', she has to go 'grenade, wisky bottle, uzi, grenade', increasing the fleeing player's life expectancy dramatically. If it's possible to make her randomly target monsters, that might be nice, especially if they're in between the player and her. I don't like the tavern idea, though. Can you imagine Lunch staying in a building for long? With the building still standing?
Sirrocco: Perhaps some other microquest, rather than a building? Possibly one of the villagers at Aru complains about her shooting up the place (after you beat up the thieves, say) and asks you to deal with the girl. They're good at being needy. Mind you, I haven't personally died to Lunch recently, and I'm not strongly invested one way or the other, but the whole "shopping, shopping, shopping, AAAUGH! Horrible Ballistic Death!" thing that it adds to the game... well, I'm not sure that having it happen unexpectedly really *adds*.
BucketMan: Lunch can target monsters. That's actually why ElCuGo saw the alignment loss. Apparently there's a bug that causes the player to lose alignment if a monster kills a good-aligned monster. As to her attacks...it's randomized. The odds of her throwing grenades four rounds in a row are one in 4096. The odds of her doing ranged attacks four rounds in a row are one in 256. The whiskey attack doesn't do any damage. She shouldn't appear in the World Tournament building though. I'm not sure why that happens.
SkizzaltixZaxali: I guess she just didn't feel like blowing up that orange belt, then
She wasn't doing consecutive 'nades. She killed me in three turns because I was wounded. She went bottle, 'nade, uzi, 'nade, 'nade (Or something like that). BucketMan: Well, she can, but she doesn't have to target monsters. You might say that she's simply not very particular about her targets.
SkizzaltixZaxali: Now that I know to avoid her, Lunch isn't a big issue. When I hear someone sneeze in the distance, I just run to the nearest dungeon entrance or the edge of the map.
ElCuGo: Agreed, Lunch is too tough! Also, i find traps very not-fun, I have lost several characters to confusion traps in Mr. Satan, it almost made me hit my keyboard with a hammer out of frustration.
BucketMan: What would you propose be done to rebalance traps? I hadn't realized there was any problem here. I don't even remember the last time I was killed by a trap prior to Muscle Tower, and even then only if I neglect methods of dealing with cuts. Also, what level were you, and what sort of build were you playing? The Satan estate is a levels 10-15 dungeon. If you go in at level 5 with a spear hoping for a fast streak to level 15, you're going to have a difficult time of things.
ElCuGo: When i finnish the rabbit hole i'm usually around level 10, then i go to Mr Satan and stairscum the top level for experience and items. The first time i was a barehanded and was fighting a brown belt i think, then it started to run away and I followed him, but in the path there were a confusion trap: dead.The last time i was playing a technomancer, adventured a little away from the stairs to pick loot, but then i saw a green belt so i run back to the stairs, but in a corridor I stepped over a confusion trap. I got confused and the green belt finished me in a few turns (While I think of this it feels like I was playing a Yeek lostsoul.) I don't know how traps could be rebalanced, but I feel they are very out of theme, so I wouln't miss them.
SkizzaltixZaxali: I've never had much trouble with traps. If you carry a first-aid or acupuncture kit around, you can cure yourself pretty easily, and I've heard tell that metal detectors detect them (But I never play techy, so I wouldn't know). Sure, they're out of theme of Dragon Ball, but they're in theme for roguelikes.
BucketMan: I don't think traps are out of theme at all. The Buyon trap in Muscle Tower is straight from the series. Emperor Pilaf's castle was filled with traps. I think I'll add a chance to evade traps, though. As it is, it's easy for technomancers to spot them, and chi practitioners can easily fly over them, but at the moment there isn't really any way to avoid them in the early game.
Sirrocco: Personally, I figure that you're pretty much taking your life into your own hands as soon as you step off the Mansion stairs if you're playing a character who can't take a green belt pretty easily. It wasn't the confusion that killed you, it was the fact that you put yourself into a situation where being confused for a few turns was lethal. The big thing about Dragonball T is that there are a lot fewer funky powers available in the beginning and middlegame. For example, teleportation requires you to either be a well-developed Chi character or beat up a (really pretty scary) tentacle monster. Unless you have one of those, if you want to be able to run away from someone, you have to be faster than they are, or you have to be able to suck down however much damage they can deal long enough to get to some stairs. You can't play the strategic edge game as much, because if you do, having a random brown belt pop out from behind the wrong door could mean your death. Be patient. Get a few levels killing green belts from the first floor stairs. Your gear will improve (not quite as fast, perhaps, but it will improve) and your levels will improve (I suspect they'll improve faster) and eventually you'll be able to survive the top floor under your own power. I don't really have any troubles with taps as they are, and I do *silly* things in the beginning game. I actually wouldn't want traps to become less scary overall. Having them be more findable/evadeable might be nice, but if you did that, I'd prefer if you upped the number or danger-level or something. As it is, stat traps are annoying, confusion traps can cause a few tense moments, and damage traps are pretty much a non-threat, unless I happen to walk across an ice-bolt trap more than once or twice. There may well be scarier traps at higher levels, but I don't really care, because by that point I'm permanently flying.
SkizzaltixZaxali: I don't remember anything about Muscle Tower other than the jiggly monster thingy, so, what's a buyon trap? You're right. Traps show up in DB, but not as often as they do in DBT. The ability to dodge or detect traps would be nice, but not crucial.
Sirrocco: That is the Buyon trap. The jiggly monster thingy is named Buyon.
ElCuGo: Fair. I guess my problem is that I don't enjoy scumming tactics a lot.I wish I could play DBT longer as it seems it's a very interesting game, but having yet another character dead just after edge scumming for 30 minutes followed by stair scumming another 30 it's a little bit too frustrating for me.
Sirrocco: Well, you don't have to do scumming. As long as you don't actually penalize your speed, and start with a decent weapon, you can switch to running to get around the yellow and orange belts near Aru village, and level up on the rabbits inside the hole. You might have to stay near the stairs at first, but you should level up past that point pretty quick. Walk out at 10th level or so (with maybe a few trips back to town to sell off the loot and train) and you'll be more than ready for the sewers. By the time you finish off the sewers quest, you should be ready to handle green belts at least, and that will let you run around on the first level of the mansion without *too* much threat, as long as you stay a bit cautious. If you're having problems with that, it may be that you're just not building your character right. I'll happily help with that, but this is not the forum. Try build babble (spoilery).
SkizzaltixZaxali: Honda can throw you ridiculously far (At least, at level 24). I was dead anyway in that battle, but it was a little humiliating to lose to him because he threw me out of the ring and onto the second row of seats, from the middle of the ring. Is his throw distance based on level, or anything? Maybe the higher your martial arts skill level, the harder you are to throw?
BucketMan: Honda uses the standard throw code, and is considered a 'level 4' (not 20) thrower. Maximum throw distance is equal to level. To evade a throw, you must overcome a random number from 1 to 100 + (throw_level * 3). Each point of dexterity and each point of dodge count for one. Rubbing oil on your skin gives you +25 if you're not wearing body armor, and another +25 if you're not wearing a cloak. So, with 10 dex, 20 dodge, and no oil, your chances to evade a throw from Honda is 30:112, and if you fail, you will be thrown anywhere from zero to 4 spaces away in each axis. Immovability will render you immune.
SkizzaltixZaxali: Let's see... I had 10 dexterity and 20 dodge, plus oil, but I was wearing a cloak and a Heavy Gi, so that wouldn't have added anything. He was throwing me 'up' the screen, so that would be about 4 spaces to the grandstands, which makes sense.