• RavenRed
• PipeDream
• Weapons

Weapons

Pipedream's Weapons system will be more complex than the previous ToME system, and will utilise the new damage system in 3.0.0 which allows damage types to be "built" from existing GF_FOO types. This goes along with the Armour system and the revamp of Monsters. Shooting skeletons full of arrows will become a little pointless, as will trying to carve your initials into a stone golem.

Below, you see the first draft of the first section of the changes. The swords have been changed, and for the most part have had their damage dice upgraded. However, they now also do specific types of damage, which is conteracted by specific types of armour. The bigger blades do a bit of crush damage, wheras few of the swords are really designed for thrusting...

Update: After discussions with DG, a new system. Percentages are out, separate rolls for each damage type is in. Also, at DG's suggestion, dice are out. The numbers are Min-Max damage for each type. Once again, suggestions/commentary/abuse are all welcome...

Update2: OK, removed the unthematic weapons and moved stuff that I said I was going to move. Also deleted Crossbows. Boomerangs I didn't consider when I wrote the first draft. I've considered them, they're gone!

HELP WANTED

Keen eyed observers will have noticed that the number of "Greatswords" has decreased markedly. From a dizzying array of types from a variety of origins, they've for the most part been collapsed into Great Scimitar and Two Handed sword.

The main reason I did this was because I couldn't find (historically) many differences between the Two-Handed swords. Certainly visually and decoratively, there are vast differences, but in terms of functionality, they're basically big and sharp.

So I culled them.

However, it's been brought to my attention that this takes away a good amount of flavour, so I'm sending out an SOS to all those Mediaevalists out there for actual functional (weight, damage, damage-type, use) differences between the following weapons:

• Claymore
• Espadon
• Flamberge
• Executioner's Sword
• Zweihander

Any suggestions welcomed in Chatter, below!

Weapon Stat Changes

Daggers

Swords

Hafted Weapons

Pole Arms

Arrows

Sling Ammo

Missile Launchers

• Slings (x2) Unchanged
• Short Bows (x3) Arrows bloody hurt, even from the more minor bow type.
• Long Bows (x4) An argument stopper.

• Also, I'm intending to add this idea to balance out the increased power.

Other Changes

• More ego-types
  • Rusted, Fine, Cheap, "Of Mordor", "Of Rohan", "Of Tulkas/Eru... etc..."
• Swap Spectral and Vampiric disadvantages, in an effort to make Spectral weapons usable again. Vampiric weapons can deal with the HP drain better than most in that they... welll... suck life. The ability to "go spectral" can be seen as weakening your body dramatically, justifying a permanent HP loss.

• Re-doing Branded weapons, a' la' this...

Chatter

DarkGod: /me prods ravenred, did you get my mail?

RavenRed: Yup. See my reply.

SimonSorc: some of the weapon types are missing, especially very strong ones. Are we dropping the 5d7 and 5d8 ones to make artifacts look more attractive? And shouldn't antimagic become an ego (well I guess the dark sword can stay anyhow)?

• RavenRed: Which ones? If you're talking about Two handed swords, then I've basically collapsed them into one weapon, as (from what I've read) the differences were more stylistic than functional. Antimagic will become an ego, as implemented in TomePLUS' (Theme's?) Weapons of Unmagic (which I origianlly proposed and Ingeborg / Furiosity perfected). However, having an Unbeliever start out without a Weapon of Unmagic would be a pain, so I've kept the darksword.

  • Oh, let's have both the darksword and some antimagic ego(s).

I'm also wondering if damage resist will be % based. As in +100% fire damage on an ent, and -20% to -100% fire damage from wearing a fire resistance item (where immunity is just -100% resistance). It would be NEAT.

• RavenRed: Yes it will, although the percentages are in the reverse direction. And yes, it IS neat.

  • Can't wait to see monster memory adapt to that. (-;

Many missing weapons, as easily checked in wizard mode: great hammer (4d6 one-handed), Slaughter axe (5d7 one handed) with animal slay, mace of disruption (5d8 two-handed) with undead slay, some others - just check yourself with the create item menu (control-A, C, create an item) There are 67 weapons on the list which is double the size of your current list.

• RavenRed: Uh, as you should be able to see from the above, this is only daggers and swords. Hafted, Polearms and axes are yet to come. Swords only, for starters.

The dropping of redundant weapons and those who are forever ignored by players of level 5+ is appreciated, but having only half the weapons might be overdoing it... I want my 5d7 and 5d8 favorites!! (-;

• RavenRed: They're coming, they're coming!

I recommend playing the game more to see how useful the late game weapons get. (-;

• RavenRed: In the current system, why bother when you can get a *thanc in the Barrow-Downs...

  • SimonSorc: *SPOILY* Been there, done that. Did you know that all the slays and brandings on a *thanc only multiply the 1d4 part and not the progressively improving +dam part (contrary to the expectations of many)? Unless I'm getting extra attacks with *thancs and nothing else (i.e. just enough STR/DEX for extras with a dagger), *thancs are inferior to the first or second 2d6 non-cursed ego weapon that comes along when it comes to inflicting melee damage (and you'll find better before it evolves much). Somehow they're inferior to the legend... if all brands and slays were *additive* damage instead of "use best one only" we'd be getting somewhere!

    • RavenRed: The new system (I'm fairly sure) is cumulative.

    SimonSorc: Huh, why did some of those weapons got their hit dice changed? Is there a specific reason or it's more "balanced" that way? I was puzzled by that 5d8->6d6 thing. Not that I'm complaining, the new system can only be better and experimenting will be necessary to tweak it right.

    • RavenRed: Yup. They've mostly had them raised, because monsters will now RESIST certain types of damage. It's an attempt to sligthly compensate for the fact that (for example) skeletons will partially resist pierce damage, and that it's pointless trying to chop up a stone golem. The Mace of Disruption now has an extra 50% holy fire damage as a fundamental part of its makeup rather than as additional slay... see the link on redoing branded weapons for the rationale. And Simon, please sign your contributions, as it makes it a hell of a lot easier to keep track of who said what in reply to which!

TheFalcon: Re: help wanted section above-

• Claymore: "hand-and-a-half" style sword, having a 45" blade, and weighing around 4.5lb to 6.5lb. Damage would I guess be much like any other broadsword.
• Espadon: heh, seems to be the same as a bastard sword, wielded two handed (mostly). Very little info. around about this one. Googling turns up mainly angband and other RPG sites.
• Flamberge: A cool, wavy blade type, gave no real advantage against armoured/unarmoured foes from normal straight blade (but looks more deadly). Weight ca. 6.5lb, ca. 46" blade. Two-handed.
• Executioner's sword: Big (ca. 48" to 50") blade, used ONLY for swinging due to blunt end (big slash damage, no piercing dam.) used traditionally for executions. (wow!)
• Zweihander: Big sword, 66" blade, weighing anywhere from 7lb to 14lb. Weapon of choice against pikes apparently.

I don't know how much use this is, and the first two seem very similar to a number of other weapons. I'd say the last two still have enough differences to merit keeping them though, even if just for flavour.

TheFury: Ok, added the weapon die suggestions to FuryMod. Thanks for the idea.

• Sirrocco: based on the realism idea (and the link on weapons that you had around here somewhere) it seems like the executioner's sword is one of those "never actually used in combat" weapons. According to wikipedia, the Flamberge actually refers to two *different* kinds of wave-bladed swords, both used for actual combat. The swords we know as flamberge would have actually been called a flambard or flammard (and the differences from normal blades seem to have been few. lopping the heads off spears, maybe?) while the actual flamberges were fencing blades, used for the oddities that came in parrying with a wavy blade.

Sirrocco: I don't know if you want to worry about this, but from a practical standpoint, some of the slash/pierce damages are additive, while others are "pick one". If you're attacking with a dagger, you're generally either stabbing or slashing (unless you're stabbing on the way in and then trying to do some extra damage while you're there as, in effect, a second attack). If you're using, say, a spiked mace, you're both piercing and crushing.

• RavenRed: Worth considering. I suppose one way you would work this is to have two damage settings (a Thrust vs. Swing-type option) which could be set via a toggle. If you're going for realism (which Pipedream/4AA is AIMING for), you'd really want the option. For example, from the recreation stuff, chain-mail is hell-on-wheels in protecting against slashing blows, but only fair to middling against either piercing or crushing damage. Why was it useful? Because given medical technology, open, bleeding wounds were the most likely to lead to dead, septicaemia if nothing else. The question then becomes which type of damage is preferred. Since (at the moment, anyway) all the damages basically work out to the same end, I'm not sure whether it's quite worth the bother...

Also, with respect to the bows, the major limit on longbows that I'd always heard had nothing to do with speed of use. A good longbowman could actually launch shots downrange pretty effectively. The problem with longbows was that you couldn't even start to use them effectively until you'd put in a rather lot of training. Good longbowmen were actually pretty disproportionately muscled (like blacksmiths, actually, if in a different way) because of the way they trained their pulling muscles. (A decent way to represent this might be giving each bow a minimum level of (strength+bowmastery). if you are a bit below the minimum, you take penalties to accuracy and/or damage. If you are too far below the minimum, you can't even string the thing. Use of the really impressive bows, then, goes to people who have invested in it heavily) In contrast, the crossbow could be used effectively by almost anyone, but the heavier crossbows required a process to load - sometimes involving actual mechanical cranks. Of course, the stronger you were, the less of a process you had to use, and so the faster you could get it done.)

• RavenRed: Hmm... I think the STR/Skill limitations are probably the best way to handle it. Crossbows OTOH are dead easy to use and would have limited STR requirements (given ratchets and winches and such). Relatively easy to use, as long as you can cope with the long restringing/reloading times but perhaps with less accuracy/range than their long counterparts...

NeilStevens: Make sure to look at the ToME 3 weapon list for ideas. I spent hours on that, looking up various weapons and doing the best I can to fill in slots.