RedNaga: since the layout used by Maylith for listing her "play style" (preferred race, class, game habits, etc...) and has been often copied to other Homepages (i used it, and i think i've seen it on at least another three pages), why not include it into the HomePage template, as a suggestion for new users to describe their playing style. And if someone really doesn't want to fill it, they can always delete it themselves.
NeilStevens: The HomepageTemplate really only exists to add the category to it. I think encouraging too much conformity on a page of individual expression is a little silly, too.
MayLith: Thanks, RedNaga.
I think I agree with Neil, too.
However, I have an alternative idea: A page somewhere (maybe in HelpForBeginners or the wiki FAQ?) that contains assorted boilerplates, or at least links to them. There's one I wrote in the wiki FAQ, for example, on how to do a poll, and I've seen at least one person use that. (Then there was Simon, who "borrowed" a fair chunk of my comp page! That bothered me a little for some reason I can't quite define.) It seems logical to me that we'll evolve assorted text boilerplate for doing various things, and to me it follows that having a nice tidy stockpile of them that is easy to find and browse seems reasonable. Using any boilerplate would be by choice, and you could of course tweak it as needed for your own page.
RedNaga: fine with me. Anyway i was only suggesting the above to encourage, not enforce, other users to let us know their gaming habit. What about some sort of common page to collect statistical info (like more played races, classes, etc...) instead?
MayLith: Those are two different things, imho. A 'gaming habits' entry on a homepage is personalized, whereas a common page would be, as you say, statistical. Both are good!
Character stats would be harder to track on the wiki, I think, though. On oook, you can find out some stats automatically; here, you'd have to post your combination manually... poll form, maybe? Hmm... that would be a really difficult (not to mention long!) poll to set up if you were trying to get all the different combinations. But a simple one would still be interesting.
NeilStevens: If we created a standardized form for answering questions, that people could paste into their homepage and fill in, it would certainly be possible to generate automated statistics based on that data.
As for statistical accuracy, the ladder has no more access to accurate data than the wiki does. Most people don't post every single character they play. Only the ones that do well or get far or have something unusual happen are worth talking about. I don't think it's worthwhile in either case, the ladder or the wiki, to try to cull data from the character sheets. It's too small a sample and it's a specially selected sample.
MayLith: And many people who play ToME don't post on the wiki, etc., etc. Yup. I had all that in the back of my head (I think) when I said "a simple [poll or set of stats] would still be interesting." Interesting as in "fun", but hardly valid in a statistical sense.
NerdanelVampire: As far as I am concerned, I don't even see the need to post character sheets on this wiki when oook exists. Linking to the character's oook page should be enough. The only exceptions are modules that oook doesn't recognize. I think it is easier to post dumps on oook than here. There is no need to open the dump in a text editor for copy-pasting, for one thing...
I'm not opposed to a statistics page, but it should be distinct from oook's purpose.
NeilStevens: (As predicted below) The wiki and the ladder are independent entities. As far as I'm concerned, the ladder is now obsolete for ToME. For rankings it was always pointless, and now the wiki is superior because it gives character sheet histories. I'd rather that the ladder be left out of discussions of how to run the wiki.
MayLith: I've been down this particular road with Neil before, Nerdanel.
I'm sure he'll chime in with his own thoughts, but here's my own current take on it:
It is useful to post character sheets here on the wiki for several reasons:
- As a handy reference for DiTL's or other creative work on the wiki.
If you want to discuss a character at length, it is much easier to post a character sheet here. The comment function on oook is primitive at best, and worse, you can't go back and edit previous comments, much less easily reply to prior comments in an easily readable fashion. Zizzo is currently working out an even better commentary system for DiTL's.
- You can arrange your links to assorted characters from a homepage. (And yes, I know there's a vaguely analagous system on oook, but you certainly can't modify that one.)
- As you say, it works for modules that oook doesn't recognize.
Re: opening a file to post here, I guess your mileage varies, but I don't notice any inconvenience. I've got wordpad bound to F12 (it gets quite a workout.) If you want to get down to it, it actually takes a little longer for me to post on oook, as I have to a) navigate to the upload page and then b) browse through an extensive system of folders to reach my char dump and then fill out that blasted (albeit brief) form.... Whereas for the wiki:
- Nav to my character's page, which is usually in the recently visited wiki pages list (1-2 clicks)
- F12 to bring up wordpad
- one motion to bring up my char sheet in the recently accessed files list
- copy/paste
Much faster.
BTW, darkgod has said he encourages us to post our characters on oook, too, as it gives the game more visibility to a wider audience. I'm certainly not advocating that we stop using oook.
NeilStevens: That's fine, but just leave the Ladder out of wiki discussions. Let users decide which they want to use. My #1 job that I've taken on here is making sure that the wiki's growth isn't stunted, and letting the ladder dictate the use of the wiki would do just that.
MayLith: To be honest, though I respect the job(s) that you've taken on, I seriously doubt that oook will stunt the growth of the wiki. I think it's fair to respond to questions about the ladder when they arise, though.
NeilStevens: You misunderstand. I don't mean not to discuss on this site. I merely mean to leave the Ladder out of discussions about how to use the wiki. Treat the ladder like any independent entity out there. Reference it all you want, but don't assume it and integrate it in wiki planning.
MayLith: Then we're in firm agreement, as I have (and have had) no intention of involving the ladder in planning anything here.
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